James Cameron's AVATAR - now with more Lorax

[John Jr.]

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dgiff ... es-before/

twice now he's called people out on global warming debates but then backed down all uwe boll style. in the most recent one, he backed down because the people "weren't of his stature in society."

[John Jr.]

dude is a douche. i wish he would stop being famous.

with that much money, it's not likely to happen.

i'm hoping he polanski's himself 5 times over with incontrovertible video evidence and goes to federal ass-pounding prison, mehself.

[Ray]

I really like this page...

[Necrometer]

bumping this thread so it doesn't disappear before I can reply to mike

also I guess they're filming the next FOUR now in case anyone hadn't heard that brilliant plan

[Necrometer]

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dgiff ... es-before/

twice now he's called people out on global warming debates but then backed down all uwe boll style. in the most recent one, he backed down because the people "weren't of his stature in society."

ok cool simmfoc with a link to breitbart

no way this guy isn't dead now, right?

edit: google says he's selling used cars and looking pretty healthy - good for him

[Necrometer]

OK, replying to s-hamster in-line (in bold) below... DON'T GET CONFUSED, READERS!

SPOILERSPOILER_SHOW

kind of a fun design trend that you may have already noticed: JC is in love with the shape of an apache helicopter's cockpit. it's the basis for the flying HKs in terminator world, for the dropship in Aliens, and for the head of the ikran in Avatar.

Hadn't noticed, but that's probably because I've loved that cockpit shape ever since I was a kid too. It's kind of funny, in general, how the marines in this one are really almost exactly the same as in Aliens. Down to the badass Latino chick, the weasely corporate guy in charge and Ripley calling them all idiots.

hahaha, good call on the Aliens similarities

I am a boss now and I live in constant fear that I am a Gorman... it doesn't help that I'm often advising people on stuff that I have almost no combat hands-on experience with

what ideas seem unfinished?

This is exactly what I wanted to avoid, but you knew I couldn't resist. Sigh. Okay then. I saw something called the "Extended Cut" which clocks in at about 3 hours. A cursory look at IMDB would seem to indicate that's the longest version? Anyway, here are my complaints, all of which I'm sure were already discussed a million times circa 2010.

OK, good to know what thing you saw. it helps explain certain things (what's unobtanium, what's the story with neytiri's sister) but certainly not everything you bring up below.

FWIW people were mostly complaining about the white savior stuff and called the movie/plot "recycled" & "simple" - you're talking about other stuff that was probably just ignored by people mainly interested in an action/adventure movie .

Why is the idea of the trees on Pandora forming a neural network introduced and discarded so quickly? This seems to be core to Cameron's world-building (which is obviously the actual point of the movie), but nothing is done with it, except:

the best lens to use in interpreting all this: JC's main aim (aside from pushing SFX tech forward and making his money back via an accessible & exciting story that would appeal to all sorts of people (working title was "project 880" - fans can be age 8-80)) with the story was to create an allegory that would compel people to 1. care about conservation of the environment, and 2. be more empathetic about other groups, be less colonial, etc. If you keep this in mind, it helps to explain all the exploration, interconnection, experiencing what it's like to be an outsider, presentation of an ecosystem as valuable & interconnected.

If it's the excuse/explanation for the planet turning on the marines at the end, but that seems totally unnecessary because the only thing that really happens is a bunch of those hammerhead elephant things knock a few mechs around, and the rest is really all Sam Worthington and the shovel-headed rainbow dragon.

right, the ground troops are the only ones really wiped out by the creatures. neytiri is able to get on the panther thing, though, and if there were tons of ground troops everywhere, the final showdown wouldn't have happened quite the same way. but this isn't very satisfying. I guess it'll let sigourney weaver get resurrected in the coming movies...

Speaking of the shovel-headed rainbow dragon, despite attempts to set this up earlier with a few lines of dialogue from Neytiri, it still doesn't make any sense. If the bond between a hunter and one of those flying things is for life, why can Jake just decide to bond with another one? Also, this is obviously not the same dragon-thing as generations ago because that one's skull is on display under the home-tree, so what is it? Some particular species? Its reincarnation? Why is it important, other than the fact that the Na'vi somehow believe it is?

ummm, did you not hear her say "IKRAN IS NOT HORSE"? basically the blue dragons have a uniquely tight bond with the humanoids for whatever reason. and I think it's a one-way burden, the dragons are bonded for life, but the humanoids can do whatever.

yeah the orange dragon thing is just a bad-ass that's a totally different species. the movie doesn't really telegraph it, but there's a cool logic around the thing having a "shovel-head": it has ridges above its eyes because it never has to see above it (it's literally the TOP predator), and everyone else is in its shadow. so jake takes his blue dragon up so high that it's in the thing's blind spot, allowing him to jump onto it with impunity...

there's something thoughtful going on with the creature design in the movie: the "dumb" animals tend to have 6 limbs; the "higher" organisms (na'vi & ikran) have only 4 limbs. they even included a "missing link" organism to bridge the evolutionary strata: a simian thing that has semi-fused forelimbs



Which brings me to all the spiritual stuff - it reads as though Cameron couldn't quite make up his mind as to how much of it can be explained with sci-fi pseudoscience and how much is actually meant to be spiritual, it's all just sort of half explained and then abandoned.

right: I think he just wanted to put this idea out there for people to consider. it's the sort of thing that clicks or doesn't, and I don't think more explanation would've done the story any favors. do you feel like anything metaphysical happened in the movie? it's a fun sci-fi conceit that they pray to what is subjectively their deity and objectively a planet-sized organism.

Why does everything on Pandora have a tentacle USB plug?

in a narrative sense: again, more attempts at fostering ideas of interconnectedness and empathy. in-movie logic: the evolutionary costs would be low & the benefits would be great - so I guess natural selection is why!

Why do all the named Na'vi characters suddenly have throat microphones at the end? Where did the machine gun come from? How does Neytiri know about the pods in the lab and how to save Jake's life? It's like all of a sudden, all these characters have human equipment and understand how everything works, just because it's somehow convenient for the plot. The scene with Neytiri and Jake-in-human-form coming face to face was actually kind of powerful, but the way it's set up completely deflates it. She just knows he's in there, and that he needs an oxygen mask because, uh, plot armor! Next sploshun!

the two main characters have spent a TON of time together by that point in the movie, so they could've discussed why humans wear breathing apparatus. the avatar drivers were wearing those walkie-talkies consistently, so it's not that crazy tech-wise. all you need to do to use it is slap it on and know that you have to touch it to talk.

that scene when she saves his life is noteworthy production-wise: I guess that's the only time (I know of) when they used a rubber prop (not CGI) to represent the na'vi - it's a fake hand that puts the mask on him. JC said that whole sequence was one of the hardest things to do for the movie.

And finally, the movie is three hours long, the first half of which is basically exposition and montage, and it still somehow fails to explain the basic premise of why the humans are on Pandora. Why are there space anthropologists? Are they anthropologists or biologists (anthropologists don't take plant samples, biologists don't teach English - what's the goal here)? Why did they try to teach the Na'vi English? Was there originally some sort of peaceful mission here that got swept under the rug once the unobtanium (lol) deposits were discovered? Why isn't this just explained with a few embittered lines of dialogue from not-Ripley? Who's in charge of the mining operation, the government or a private contractor? If it's the latter, why are there marines there? The voice-over actually briefly addresses this and only makes it more confusing. And why do they need the avatar tech in the first place? Someone claims at some point that it's to gain the Na'vi's trust and that seems to be super-important if they're willing to track down someone's alcoholic failure twin brother just to pilot one of these things, but they dress like humans and the Na'vi all immediately know that they're not "real", so, uh... what was the point of that again? I mean, I understand the kid fantasy at the heart of it, but for fuck's sake, come up with a better explanation if you're going to include it in your movie.

the scientists don't make that much sense, and I think they're doing so many things at once because the story couldn't sustain a ton of scientist characters. I think they have a line in there about "good PR" or something, and the anthropology aspect would make sense if you wanted to displace intelligent beings so you could get to their precious ores without murdering them.

I feel like the "diplomacy has failed" message was pretty clear. and there are some lines in there about how things were initially peaceful until a fuckup wherein they shot up that school and neytiri's sister got merc'd. I think if you watched it again most of this stuff would seem less unexplained.

I agree that the core justification for the avatar bodies is weak as hell. just be nice to them and it'll probably go OK even if you look a little different. but if you don't USB, how can you get it on with the locals? we all know this is the foundation of all good diplomacy...

I think almost everything is run by the evil corporation, including the science part. fun easter eggs: the human base is a literal pentagon (which is not presented blatantly in the movie) and framing trick that re-creates the US flag.

not something you brought up, but I feel like the unobtanium stuff is REALLY under-explained. it's maintained as JUST a macguffin in a movie that has a lot of depth available for most of its seemingly minor details. some ancillary stuff (books, ancient version of the script) explain that it's a room temp superconductor that's revolutionary on earth. the longer cuts of the movie have some voice over that explains that it's what makes the mountains float, but the theatrical cut of the movie had neither of these things! it's just like: we need this stuff, and that's that.

Oh shit, look at this fucking post. I think I had more, but I'm gonna stop now if that's okay. I actually wanted to say that it's kind of nice that James Cameron got to make this movie. It's obviously his dream project and something he cares about a lot, and while I don't hate Michael Bay as much as everyone else, I certainly prefer the Terminator/Aliens guy getting to spend a quarter billion dollars on realizing an idea based on a dream his mom once had to the fifteenth soulless, plot-less Transformers movie. So there's that.

I agree that it's cool that a new IP (even if the story was kinda hacky & kinda recycled) got made at this scale, and wasn't a financial disaster. I'm kind of annoyed that it did SO well, because I was really looking forward to the battle angel alita movie that he was also waiting to do 'til tech was up to speed, but now he handed that off to richard rodriguez since he's only doing avatar movies 'til he keels over.

I hadn't heard that thing about his mom's dream being an inspiration! I was sure I'd heard most of the key trivia by now I did stumble upon this ancient painting JC did in the '70s that captures a few of the ideas that made it in to the movie:

zoomed-out


Ugh. Sorry. I'm done. Honest.

hahaha, I'm tireless when it comes to talking about this stuff. post more if you dare!

[spacehamster]

hahaha, good call on the Aliens similarities

I can't possibly be the only one who's ever noticed that, though. Movies like this get scrutinized to pieces by nerds way worse than what we're doing here.

I am a boss now and I live in constant fear that I am a Gorman...

I've been a department head for a couple of years now and I'd say as long as you keep asking yourself that question, you're fine.

FWIW people were mostly complaining about the white savior stuff and called the movie/plot "recycled" & "simple"

Eh. I don't mind if plots are unoriginal and simple if they're well executed. I guess since the Na'vi are a metaphor for every indigenous populace that's ever been ass-raped by white people, the fact that the white guy's the "chosen one" is a bit troubling, but then again, if you want to look at the movie through the hyper-critical SJW lens, the whole idea of a blue-skinned alien race as a metaphor for "unspecified aboriginals" is racist in and of itself already. In other words, bleh, don't care. I'm totally fine with the movie's obvious environmentalist message, which brings me to:

presentation of an ecosystem as valuable & interconnected

I get that, but purely from a plot standpoint, the "neural network" idea felt incredibly shoe-horned in, and the USB tentacle plug is so central to the story that it really needed at least some explanation.

dragons are bonded for life, but the humanoids can do whatever

That's your head-canon explanation, though, it's never clearly stated in the movie and what Neytiri says seems to imply otherwise.

there's something thoughtful going on with the creature design in the movie: the "dumb" animals tend to have 6 limbs; the "higher" organisms (na'vi & ikran) have only 4 limbs. they even included a "missing link" organism to bridge the evolutionary strata: a simian thing that has semi-fused forelimbs

Ha, I hadn't noticed that. I was actually thinking it's silly that the Na'vi would have evolved from six-legged animals, but that's a cool touch. Obviously the creatures and the production design in this movie in general are stellar, I'm not about to cast doubt on any of that.

do you feel like anything metaphysical happened in the movie?

If nothing else, then definitely the transfer of consciousness from one body to another. There's other stuff, but that one's kind of a big deal and it's 100% clear.

it's a fun sci-fi conceit that they pray to what is subjectively their deity and objectively a planet-sized organism.

It would be if it was consistent, but it's not.

the two main characters have spent a TON of time together by that point in the movie, so they could've discussed why humans wear breathing apparatus. the avatar drivers were wearing those walkie-talkies consistently, so it's not that crazy tech-wise. all you need to do to use it is slap it on and know that you have to touch it to talk.

Again, head-canon. I'm totally fine with movies using narrative shorthand and not holding viewers' hands through every little detail, but that felt like it appeared out of nowhere, particularly Neytiri's unexplained understanding of the avatar pilot pods and breathing masks. And in general, it's out of sync with how the movie introduces things like this - it generally does take care to set things up (shovelhead skull, the failed attempt to transfer Grace's soul into her avatar), but then this just happens and we're supposed to accept it.

I think if you watched it again most of this stuff would seem less unexplained.

That's possible. There may have been some dialogue that I didn't pay enough attention to.

but if you don't USB, how can you get it on with the locals?

Captain Kirk did it the old-fashioned way, and if it's good enough James Tiberius motherfucking Kirk, it sure is good enough for me.

not something you brought up, but I feel like the unobtanium stuff is REALLY under-explained.

Meh. I was fine with that. It serves its purpose for the environmentalist allegory and that's that. You don't really need to know more than that it's valuable for the story to work.

I hadn't heard that thing about his mom's dream being an inspiration!

Pretty sure I found that on the movie's Wikipedia page, dude...

[Necrometer]

um, I only read pandorapedia, thank you very much

dragons are bonded for life, but the humanoids can do whatever

That's your head-canon explanation, though, it's never clearly stated in the movie and what Neytiri says seems to imply otherwise.

I think this is pretty clear. she makes a statement about the blue dragons (ikran), and it's about exclusivity & bonding for life. if it's species-specific (it pertains to a na'vi-ikran something), it can apply unidirectionally or bidirectionally. I don't know which, since the movie never shows us an instance where it would matter. we never see one na'vi have a chance/reason to be on two different ikran, and we never see one ikran have a chance/reason to be mounted by two different na'vi. we know that the "limit" applies only to na'vi-ikran connections since na'vi can sync up with horses, orange dragon, panther thing after having been on ikran. so yeah, MAYBE there's some lack of clarity around whether or not one na'vi can be on multiple ikran in a lifetime, but I'm pretty sure she's just saying that one ikran can't be ridden by multiple na'vi. I've seen this scene 10 times and never thought it was confusing

the other head-canon thing I said was 100% head-canon

I might write more later...

[Necrometer]

All those too cool to appreciate anything James Cameron's even done, kindly fuck off.

just bumping this in hopes it'll survive 'til 2020 (or beyond) for A2: the search for more money

has anyone been on that flying avatar ride at disneyworld?

[Eight Bit Alien]

WEEPT

[THE KILL]

Necrometer, you seriously don't care about the shitty CGI in this trainwreck of a film? I'm not even baiting here...

[Necrometer]

the fine grain detail is far from perfect (the aliens & creatures look overly rubbery) but I'm slightly nearsighted so that fuzz helps sell the effect in theaters. I do not really enjoy watching this movie on an HDTV. I do think the physics & feel of the CGI elements are leagues ahead of the weightless nonsense in the hobbit trilogy, though. also, they were making it up as they went along - the effects in the special edition shots are way better than the stuff they completed at first. so hopes are high for the sequels' visuals!

also I can't wait for a re-release of the first one because (1) 3D imax is the best way to see it, and (2) it's going to re-take the #1 WW BO spot

[FVBTVS]

ten bucks says it doesn't

[Eight Bit Alien]

You really think so?? I doubt it makes a ton, but it has to make at LEAST $5 million.
There's probably going to be more international interest too, which might be hard to predict.

[Eight Bit Alien]

I think it's a good idea for everyone to make sure Avatar retakes the throne, whatever the case may be. There's no fucking way Avatar 2 comes anywhere close to the top spot... I just don't think people are really interested. James Cameron almost certainly had access to some kinda nuclear weapons or water-bomb at this point, and I don't want him to kill everyone once he realizes he'll never have the top spot ever again.

[Necrometer]

here's the deal in case anyone is trying not to lose $10 to me

Avatar made $200M in China a decade ago, making it the biggest of all time there. that market has since more than quadrupled, so there's essentially $600M worth of market there who has never seen it in theaters. Endgame is just barely squeaking by Avatar's record, so it'll need a few tens of millions. Titanic re-release made like $57M and that movie doesn't even have any sexy aliens in it!

[Necrometer]

also, trump is working hard for another recession, which means more weak-dollar rocket fuel for Avatar 2. don't count it out!

[riley-o]

Hi there, just wanted to say I genuinely have NO idea how this movie ended up as the #1 movie of all time. What was the hook for people ?? Titanic I got because women are fucking pathetic and predictable and Marvel movies I got because nerds are fucking pathetic and predictable, but this dumb trash I don’t understand it even a little bit

[Eight Bit Alien]

everyone keeps laughing at this but

it makes me feel like King Arthur just woke up in a cave and took back Excalibur to save the world from climate change or aliens or something

[Eight Bit Alien]

also Hi there, just wanted to say I genuinely have NO idea how my boner ended up as the #1 boner of all time.

[Necrometer]

mackenzie davis is pretty awesome to look at so I'm keeping an open mind

no way it can be worse than genisys?

Hi there, just wanted to say I genuinely have NO idea how this movie ended up as the #1 movie of all time. What was the hook for people ?? Titanic I got because women are fucking pathetic and predictable and Marvel movies I got because nerds are fucking pathetic and predictable, but this dumb trash I don’t understand it even a little bit

a substantial number of people either want to fuck hippie elf-cats or want to be hippie elf-cats

furries are pathetic and unpredictable

[FVBTVS]

cannot be worse than genisys

[Chad]

haha, i never finished avatar

I did love terminator 2 and true lies

my sister loved titanic

but fuck james cameron anyway

avatar

[Eight Bit Alien]

^ ^ ^ j e w i s h m o u v n t a i n ^ ^ ^ d i s r e g a r d ^ ^ ^ t h a n k y o u ^ ^ ^

[Necrometer]

guess I'm getting a benz!