European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

[spacehamster]

His last youtube video won't have his head in it either.

Touché, sir. Touché.

[Ray]

that was worth being verned for

[antinatalism]

In all of your arguments, you keep referring to Switzerland as if it is representative of all of Europe, when it is quite obviously not. What do your British, Swedish, Italian, French and German comrades have to say about all this?

Let's revisit this quote you made earlier:

The biggest problem with the whole conversation, sadly, is still that somehow this point of view isn't allowed - everyone either insists immigration is 100% problem free and the more, the merrier, or they're screaming about islamization and predicting the end of Western culture within the next five years. It's fucking retarded.

I just want to highlight this quote because YOU are the one that's mischaracterizing my position on this matter as belonging to the latter camp when I never stated that, but obviously since I listen to NSBM that definitely makes me a Nazi and therefore want to genocide anyone who isn't white, nevermind the fact that I am myself not white - okay. Also, it implies that you admit this will pose future problems for Europe, correct? Yet your attitude seems to be that everything about is just hunky-dory old hat and adding a few million foreigners to places that are already fairly densely populated is no big deal.

So here's what I want to know (I know I've stated it before in more simplistic terms but it still hasn't been addressed):

There are hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Europe who do not share its culture, ethnicity or values. Of those migrants, only a small percentage of these people are actually fleeing a warzone. Nevermind the fact that the first priority of anyone fleeing a warzone is to get to safety and there are lots of places these "refugees" could go that, coincidentally, aren't the richest countries with the highest living standards and offer the most luxurious benefits.

Why are Europeans obligated to help these people when there is the real possibilty - no matter how minimal you think it is - that they pose an existential threat to them?

Wouldn't you rather have a ZERO chance of allowing these existential threats to exist? Why is there no referendum for situations like these? Obviously you are ok with letting just anyone into your backyard for whatever reason, but you can't respect the desires of your neighbors who don't? What kind of a democracy is that?

More importantly, assuming these people pose ZERO risk of being bloodthirsty jihadists, what is the obligation of Europeans to accept these people into their countries at all? That is really what I want to know. You can ignore everything else if you want as long as you address this point.

Many of these countries are experiencing declining fertility rates. So the best solution is to import people who don't speak the language, share the culture, or even possess the skills of the population they are replacing? How do you expect that to play out? Especially in light of the fact that there is literally an inexhaustible supply of similar people who will see this and follow suite?

[Geeheeb]

His last youtube video won't have his head in it either.

Touché, sir. Touché.

[spacehamster]

In all of your arguments, you keep referring to Switzerland as if it is representative of all of Europe, when it is quite obviously not. What do your British, Swedish, Italian, French and German comrades have to say about all this?

Nomb is German, and we don't seem to fundamentally disagree. He's more sceptical than me, and I don't think complete assimilation is really desirable anyway, but by an large, we see things very similarly.

Also, it implies that you admit this will pose future problems for Europe, correct?

Not really. What I'm saying is that no, immigration isn't something that just sorts itself out if we can all try really hard to be nice and not be racist, as some leftists would have you believe. But there have been many large waves of immigration into Europe over the course of its history, and we've survived all of them just fine. We handled some of them better than others, and that proves they need to be handled, but it's not an issue that can't be solved if everyone stops screaming about "islamization" and "existential threats".

There are hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Europe who do not share its culture, ethnicity or values.

I don't know what that means, and evidently neither do you. Europe does not have a single culture, ethnicity or value system. We've only stopped going to war against one another very recently in our history. The idea of a unified European culture is insane. There is no such thing. Not even close. This is why so many conservatives are extremely sceptical of the EU as a political construct - they're convinced it won't work because our cultures are too different.

there are lots of places these "refugees" could go that, coincidentally, aren't the richest countries with the highest living standards and offer the most luxurious benefits.

They are going to those countries, in droves. Other countries much closer to Syria, as we've already discussed, are just straight up refusing to take them in and sending them towards Europe. Many of them travel by foot or in unventilated vans and under other unimaginable conditions and don't arrive alive. Do you really think they're all just risking death because they want an iPhone?

Wouldn't you rather have a ZERO chance of allowing these existential threats to exist?

There's no such thing as zero chance of a threat. That's a crazy idea, and any policy based on it will inevitably lead to totalitarianism.

Why is there no referendum for situations like these? Obviously you are ok with letting just anyone into your backyard for whatever reason, but you can't respect the desires of your neighbors who don't? What kind of a democracy is that?

Actually Switzerland has federal referenda on immigration policies pretty frequently. The last one rejected the idea of a hard cap on immigration by a landslide. The one not long before that turned out differently. We're always kind of on the fence about the topic.

what is the obligation of Europeans to accept these people into their countries at all? That is really what I want to know. You can ignore everything else if you want as long as you address this point.

I could think of a lot of reasons why we have that obligation like the fact that we're by far the most privileged continent in the world and it's mostly because we've exploited the rest of the planet for about 1000 years (starting right around the crusades), or the fact that you can trace almost every major, long-lasting problem in the world back to the fact that the Europeans fucked everyone in the ass during colonial times, or just the minor trifle of human rights, but I'm guessing you'll shoot all of those down because you're just going to insist that this imaginary "existential threat" exists.

Instead, I'll go for the pragmatic answer - trying to stop immigration is like trying to stop the wind. It's going to happen anyway. And it's neither good or bad, it's just something that happens and that we have to deal with. So the real questions to ask are, how do we do this, and what do we want? What actually are those values we supposedly share and that we don't want to lose? That's the conversation that needs to happen. I actually do think, and so does every other sane human being, that there are core values that are non-negotiable and that our ancestors had to fight tooth and nail for against oppressive monarchies and the churches. Equal rights for everyone, democracy, freedom of speech. And if people are going to live here, they have to respect those values. But these millions of Muslim immigrants that don't believe in any of that and want to introduce Sharia law in Europe are an imaginary boogeyman. These people are tiny in number, and they pose no threat. Like Nomb and I already said, the vast majority of the second generation always sees the benefits of our way of life and wants in on it, women's equality and all. What reason do we have to deny them that?

[nomb]

There are hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Europe who do not share its culture, ethnicity or values.

We are very much aware of this. In a short term this may very well present us some problems, like having parallel societies or ghettos. In the long run however, a process of islamization (=turning Germans into Muslims ) doesn't seem to take place, in fact (like I said a page before) 3rd generation Turks speak better German than Turkish, and are very much German. They will even admit it themselves once they've visited the homeland of their parents or grandparents for the first time.

Of those migrants, only a small percentage of these people are actually fleeing a warzone.

Yeah, but let's not forget that while Germany is taking a lot of them in, all of them will have to apply to get asylum in Germany and lots of them will get rejected. They have a right to apply for asylum, but beyond that they can also be sent away. This will probaby happen to a lot of them.

Nevermind the fact that the first priority of anyone fleeing a warzone is to get to safety and there are lots of places these "refugees" could go that, coincidentally, aren't the richest countries with the highest living standards and offer the most luxurious benefits.

While Germany is about to take in at least 800000 migrants, there are apparently about 2 million migrants/refugees in Turkey.

Why are Europeans obligated to help these people when there is the real possibilty - no matter how minimal you think it is - that they pose an existential threat to them?

I know this can be a terrible word for Americans, but in Europe it doesn't necessarily have the same negative connotation: Europe considers itself as quite a liberal entity. And that usually entails that humaneness is placed before safety concerns (the principle of being innocent until proven guilty is also based on this concept!).
Also, like Spacehamster has noted, there are historical reasons.

Wouldn't you rather have a ZERO chance of allowing these existential threats to exist?

Yes, but I also happen to believe this is simply impossible.

Why is there no referendum for situations like these? Obviously you are ok with letting just anyone into your backyard for whatever reason, but you can't respect the desires of your neighbors who don't? What kind of a democracy is that?

In Germany, our constitution doesn't really provide for referendums, and while some parties would like to change this for certain issues like immigration of the construction of train stations, referendums wouldn't be as easy to carry out as in Switzerland, for the simple reason that Germany has about ten times more people in it.
As for respecting the desires of our neighbors, yeah this poses a problem right now, one we didn't notice before we had this migrant crisis. Also remember that Europe is still not a single entity and as such it simply can't act like one. Europe was not prepared for this!

More importantly, assuming these people pose ZERO risk of being bloodthirsty jihadists

,

No one is assuming this, except for some incredibly idealistic leftists and much of the media in the beginning.

what is the obligation of Europeans to accept these people into their countries at all?

See above, you basically already asked this question.

Many of these countries are experiencing declining fertility rates. So the best solution is to import people who don't speak the language, share the culture, or even possess the skills of the population they are replacing? How do you expect that to play out? Especially in light of the fact that there is literally an inexhaustible supply of similar people who will see this and follow suite?

Personally, I'm not sure wether "importing people" is the best solution, but it certainly is the easiest, speaking in political terms. There are incentives to get women to have more children, or to make it easier for women who go to work/are trying to have a career to have/support children. This is a totally differnet issue though, which of course plays into the larger problem, but man, I'd be sitting here al night if we started discussing these finer details...

[Cryptoplasty]

I want more headless Spacehamster videos.

[THE KILL]

hahahaha

also, I'd never have imagined Spacehamster's voice to be so soft and comforting... he should do voiceovers on Sendung mit der Maus and nature documentaries!

[hipster holocaust]

He has quite a handle on his accent, very impressed

[riley-o]

I bet that devious foreigner just wrote the script and hired a fiverr artist to do the voiceover for him

[hipster holocaust]

I bet that devious foreigner just wrote the script and hired a fiverr artist to do the voiceover for him

Aren't they on the pinko commie point system over there by now? How much would this cost?

[antinatalism]

But there have been many large waves of immigration into Europe over the course of its history, and we've survived all of them just fine.

O rly? And how many of those occurred peacefully, outside of the Roman empire?

There are hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Europe who do not share its culture, ethnicity or values.

I don't know what that means, and evidently neither do you. Europe does not have a single culture, ethnicity or value system. We've only stopped going to war against one another very recently in our history. The idea of a unified European culture is insane. There is no such thing. Not even close. This is why so many conservatives are extremely sceptical of the EU as a political construct - they're convinced it won't work because our cultures are too different.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. American public education may be shit, but I at least know Europe does not possess a single unified culture. But then you go on to say this:

I actually do think, and so does every other sane human being, that there are core values that are non-negotiable and that our ancestors had to fight tooth and nail for against oppressive monarchies and the churches. Equal rights for everyone, democracy, freedom of speech.

You do realize that these are not values that most African or Arab countries share right?

And if people are going to live here, they have to respect those values. But these millions of Muslim immigrants that don't believe in any of that and want to introduce Sharia law in Europe are an imaginary boogeyman. These people are tiny in number, and they pose no threat. Like Nomb and I already said, the vast majority of the second generation always sees the benefits of our way of life and wants in on it, women's equality and all. What reason do we have to deny them that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham ... on_scandal
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby

These are just some examples off the top of my head and the more people of these ethnicities you import, the more these kinds of events will increase. How can you ignore these things? I'm guessing you probably just write them off as "isolated incidents" or by saying "people of all ethnicities do bad things" right?

So if people who have lived in close proximity for thousands of years, who have more in common with each other than not - e.g. the aforementioned values of equal rights, democracy and freedom of speech - what makes you think importing people from thousands of miles away with even less in common will fare better? Do you live in an area that is predominantly comprised of Muslims?

Other countries much closer to Syria, as we've already discussed, are just straight up refusing to take them in and sending them towards Europe. Many of them travel by foot or in unventilated vans and under other unimaginable conditions and don't arrive alive. Do you really think they're all just risking death because they want an iPhone?

If it's true that these people simply want to live under democracy, then why aren't their countries like yours? Why don't they fight for it in their own lands instead of coming to yours? I don't believe they do, but they definitely want the perks of it.

I do agree that the U.S. and Europe are to a degree responsible for this influx of refugees/migrants, but I disagree with this policy of taking as much in as possible. If they truly want democracy, then we should assist them militarily to achieve it in their own countries - otherwise they will just keep coming in.

There's no such thing as zero chance of a threat. That's a crazy idea, and any policy based on it will inevitably lead to totalitarianism.

Uh, no. Let me clarify: You seal off the borders and stop people from coming in. It doesn't mean that people already within those borders will stop committing crimes, but you will prevent the people outside of those borders from coming in and committing more crimes.

I could think of a lot of reasons why we have that obligation like the fact that we're by far the most privileged continent in the world and it's mostly because we've exploited the rest of the planet for about 1000 years (starting right around the crusades), or the fact that you can trace almost every major, long-lasting problem in the world back to the fact that the Europeans fucked everyone in the ass during colonial times, or just the minor trifle of human rights, but I'm guessing you'll shoot all of those down because you're just going to insist that this imaginary "existential threat" exists.

Everybody likes to talk about the evils of slavery and colonialism, while ignoring the places in the world where these things have ended (hint: not Africa or the Middle East). Europeans are soooo evil, but somehow everyone wants to live in their countries? And where does this debt to the brown masses of the world end? Will it be satisfied once Europe finally ceases to exist? Until it is an identity-less blend of every race, finally united under the benevolent banner of globalism? I know you'll scoff at the idea, but if things keep up as they are, it will happen. Maybe not in our lifetime, but logically speaking, it has to happen.

This idea of Europeans being the world's savior because in the past they were the world's oppressors is honestly retarded. Every single civilization engages in abhorrent behavior, yet Europeans are unique in that they're the only ones eternally condemned to bear the responsibility for it. You don't find that a little odd?

[Necrometer]

ahahaha that vid

I bet that devious foreigner just wrote the script and hired a fiverr artist to do the voiceover for him

he sorta sounded like you, actually... just a less deep voice

[Geeheeb]

Sorry this isn't 100% relevant because it doesn't cover Europe (just the USA), but this report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine says they are doing just fine with the headline "Newest Immigrants Assimilating as Fast as Previous Ones, Report Says".

Some interesting things I was surprised about:

"foreign-born adults and children are healthier in general than Americans. They are less likely to die from cancer or heart disease, and have fewer chronic illnesses and lower rates of obesity." (which I'm sure aligns more with USA death patterns as a EVIL WICKED OPPRESSIVE [no sarcasm] is adopted)

"immigrant men 18 to 39 were incarcerated at about one-fourth the rate of American men in that group...However, there is evidence the crime rate is increasing as immigrants become assimilated, rising to match the rates of native-born Americans."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/us/ne ... -says.html

[joefromthegarage]

Spacehamster, that video was the bees knees. Your students are lucky to have you.

Why don't you have any sort of Swiss accent? Did you deliberately study pronunciation?

And if I may ask, why didn't you study the Queen's English like every British teacher in Europe desperately wants to keep relevant? Do other people in Switzerland talk like you?

[joefromthegarage]

This idea of Europeans being the world's savior because in the past they were the world's oppressors is honestly retarded. Every single civilization engages in abhorrent behavior, yet Europeans are unique in that they're the only ones eternally condemned to bear the responsibility for it. You don't find that a little odd?

Sorry, no. Go to any European forum on the web and you will find Europeans blaming this on Americans due to the wars in Iraq and Syria. With quite a bit of vitriol, too. And demanding that Americans solve the refugee crisis because 'mericans screwed it all up and noble Europeans are innocent.

[Wang Mandu]

People just finding out about spacehamster's velvety smooth English pronunciation and voice tone. If I could get close to that level of fluency in a foreign language, I'd be over the moon. on the video.

[spacehamster]

You do realize that these are not values that most African or Arab countries share right?

This would all make a lot more sense to you if you'd stop conflating countries with the people who live in them. Especially countries that aren't nation states, but multi-ethnic former colonies whose borders only exist because a European drew them there a few hundred years ago.

Also, if you're seriously wondering why there isn't a movement for more democracy in the Muslim world (you're not, but this is too easy to refute), maybe you should google "Arab spring", and maybe you should read up a bit on the fact that the countries in question typically have tyrannical dictators that were installed by Western governments when it was convenient for us and whom we still support, depending on which way the wind is blowing. See also: every politician in the West sucking the Saudi king's dick when he died, as if Saudi Arabia isn't one of the worst when it comes to human rights violations, inequality and flagrant tyranny.

"people of all ethnicities do bad things" right?

Are you saying they don't? Are you saying white people don't commit crimes? Have you heard of Anders Breivik? I'm guessing he's one of your heroes, but he doesn't really help your argument here. Do you realize how often people are assaulted by your neo-nazi brothers in spirit on this continent?

So if people who have lived in close proximity for thousands of years, who have more in common with each other than not - e.g. the aforementioned values of equal rights, democracy and freedom of speech - what makes you think importing people from thousands of miles away with even less in common will fare better?

I don't recognize this place you're talking about. You need to get your information about Europe from somewhere else than Graveland lyrics and Stormfront.

Let me clarify: You seal off the borders and stop people from coming in. It doesn't mean that people already within those borders will stop committing crimes, but you will prevent the people outside of those borders from coming in and committing more crimes.

Yeah, man, we'll BUILD A WALL AROUND EUROPE AND MAKE THE MUSLIMS PAY FOR IT. Bwahahahahah. You're awesome, Nick.

But just so Torsan doesn't cry that this is a copout - in the real world, this is impossible. If it was, no place on earth would have illegal immigrants. We're trading with the rest of the world. We have relationships with these countries. We can't just close our borders. You're suggesting we turn Europe into North Korea, and look how that's working out for them. They are a culturally unified country of shared values and one ethnicity - is that what your ideal nation looks like?

And even if it didn't mean completely destroying our standard of living in the name of keeping ze race pure, you couldn't even get all of Europe to agree where we'd build this wall that we'll make the filthy Saracen infidels pay for. The whole idea is preposterous, and you wouldn't even find more than two ultra-right wing populist politicians here that would suggest anything of the sort, including Geert Wilders and all these other asshats whose bullshit you're regurgitating in this thread.

Man, I forgot how dull arguing with racists is. Sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt for a minute there, but we're already swirling down the circular, irrational spiral that is trying to reason with a racist. You're completely ignoring every core point Nomb and I are making (especially the one that there is plenty of precedent for what's happening now, that we've handled situations like this in the past and there's no reason to assume we can't handle this one), or, well, you're ignoring Nomb's posts altogether because the fact that the guy from Germany is agreeing with me is inconvenient. We're done here. There's nothing I can do to convince you that this is what's going on in the real world. Sieg heil, Kamerad.

[spacehamster]

Why don't you have any sort of Swiss accent? Did you deliberately study pronunciation?

I started early, and I've been around a lot of Americans. And I've just always been good at picking up accents if I hear them enough. The German accent I did in the video is also not my native accent, I just thought it would be funnier that way.

And if I may ask, why didn't you study the Queen's English like every British teacher in Europe desperately wants to keep relevant? Do other people in Switzerland talk like you?

It just wasn't ever an issue, really. They didn't specifically make us speak with British accents in school, and at the university I went to, a lot of the professors were American anyway. Besides, correct grammar and appropriate academic style are more important than an accent.

I think a lot of people in Switzerland speak with more of an American accent these days because it's just what you hear on TV and in movies all the time. It's a bit weird, really - we're more familiar with that accent because of the media, and mainland Europeans tend to have the same reaction to British English that Americans do, despite the fact that the UK is so much closer and anti-Americanism, like you've apparently noticed, is rampant.

[How Are Mortiis Goatse?!]

Norway is only taking 8000 refugees, which is only 2/3 of how many we took in during the Balkan war. I think we should accept more.

I'm not worried about terrorism. At least not islamist terrorism. The only group that has any history of terrorism and political violence in Norway are right wingers - from the scumbags who collaborated with the Nazi invaders during WWII to Anders Behring Breivik. In 1977 right wing extremists bombed a leftist bookstore in Tromsø. In 1979 they threw a bomb at workers' day parade. In 1981 a group splintered from the Army with a stolen weapons cache and called themselves the New German Army; they killed two people before they were apprehended. In 1985 a group called Norwegian Front blew up Nor Mosque in Oslo. In 1994 and 1995 neo nazis blew up the headquarters of the left wing activist group Blitz' headquarters. In addition there are multiple other assaults, arsons, threats, and gun violence incidents. In 2001, after the brutal murder of 15 year old Benjamin Hermansen (adopted by white parents from Africa), there was finally a serious police crackdown on right wing extremist groups, and there weren't any notable incidents until Breivik in 2011, the worst lone wolf massacre in history.

After 9/11 Norwegian security police turned a complete blind eye to right wing terrorists, but of course right wing populist rhetoric dominates the discourse, so everyone from the Minister of Justice and down are frothing at ISLAMIZASHUN while the most likely terrorist act to happen in Norway in wake of the Syrian refugee crisis is another attack by another one of these Eurabia crackpots. Although we have a couple of Jihad glorifying losers in our Muslim community here, they would go away if the media just stopped paying attention to them, while the right wing lunatics have demonstrated over and over again that they have the will to actually carry out the violence they preach.

[THE KILL]

The German accent I did in the video is also not my native accent, I just thought it would be funnier that way.

Damn obvious it's not, ya Swiss fuck Gotta say, though: for a dude who, for some inexplicable reason (since I'm sure you're a nice guy to be around in everyday life), sometimes enjoys displaying a breath-takingly self-righteous/ asshole-ish online persona I gotta say I admired the way you handled the whole discussion. I agree that the discussion has run its course; nothing you might say will convince the usual suspects that what's happening now is not an Islamic invasion threatening to destroy our holy Christian Western civilization. As one of the board's resident Germans, I'd just like to chime in and say that Spacehamster's attitude towards immigration is mainstream in Germany, but of course there's lots of debate on the subject, and quite a few people would prefer it if there weren't any annoying foreigners in that fine country of ours, but fortunately only very few (but still too many) Germans do abhorrent shit like setting fire to refugee buildings. The overall attitude here is that we should help other, less fortunate people who come here in search of a better life for their family and children.

[Cryptoplasty]

You conveniently forgot about black metal church burnings.

[How Are Mortiis Goatse?!]

Most of those guys were/are nazi losers as well.

[hipster holocaust]

Is it true the Bavarian hicks make the best beer but are also the biggest assholes?

[AskForRaffo]

In all of your arguments, you keep referring to Switzerland as if it is representative of all of Europe, when it is quite obviously not. What do your British, Swedish, Italian, French and German comrades have to say about all this?

No care.
We have had a bunch of people come over here from Morocco, Egypt, Albania and Romania since forever.
They're definitely not worse than neapolitans, trust me.