European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by The Torsion »

spacehamster wrote: The reality is that the population of Europe is aging, and we need immigration to keep our economies afoot..
And there you have it. Not enough young Europeans to take shitty wages so something has to be done to keep those subsidized corporate profits up. Call people Nazis if they disagree. You should write for The Economist.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by MeatGrease »

b-but I thought populations were little more than economic abstractions...
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by spacehamster »

The Torsion wrote:
spacehamster wrote: The reality is that the population of Europe is aging, and we need immigration to keep our economies afoot..
And there you have it. Not enough young Europeans to take shitty wages so something has to be done to keep those subsidized corporate profits up. Call people Nazis if they disagree. You should write for The Economist.
How libertarian of you to suggest that we close our borders instead.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by The Torsion »

:lol: Great comeback. Sure have a laugh at my lack of pure libertarian bona fides. Beats owning up to the fact that you put economic stats above your own people, just like an insulated EU bureaucrat or corporate CEO.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by FVBTVS »

spacehamster wrote:
We used to have five threads like this a week in the good ol' days, man. If anything, I'm feeling nostalgic.
but everyone is so stupid and sad. and i'm here reading it.. :cry:
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by spacehamster »

The Torsion wrote:put economic stats above your own people
:lol:

Listen, T-Dolph, I really appreciate the advice on how to keep ze race pure, but maybe I've just seen wave after wave of immigrants over the four decades of my life, and every time conservative shitheads like you who think the phrase "your own people" actually means something cried about how this was going to be the end of Europe and there would be a seismic cultural shift, and every time absolutely nothing of the sort happened.

Well, there's a lot of cevapcici restaurants now, and we didn't have those when I was a kid. So I guess Europe is no more and I'm just kidding myself.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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Torsion, will you run a Skype session of MYFAROG for interested parties y/n?
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by MeatGrease »

If you think the claim is that immigration causes immediate demographic and cultural consequences, you are misrepresenting that argument. The fact is that people have ethnic interests and they pursue those interests wherever they find themselves. Europe is importing a minority that has no interest in assimilation, in fact hold values that are at odds with if not totally antagonistic and exploitative of those of their host countries. The ripples of this effect are only being glimpsed. There isn't really any practical benefit of this practice besides the incredibly dubious economic claim, you're just inheriting higher crime statistics and a volatile minority population that needs to be placated. Formerly high trust societies will become cynical like the US. At the end of the day, what really matters is that it seems like the average citizen does not want this change for their homeland.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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MeatGrease wrote:Europe is importing a minority that has no interest in assimilation, in fact hold values that are at odds with if not totally antagonistic and exploitative of those of their host countries. The ripples of this effect are only being glimpsed.
spacehamster wrote:maybe I've just seen wave after wave of immigrants over the four decades of my life, and every time conservative shitheads like you who think the phrase "your own people" actually means something cried about how this was going to be the end of Europe and there would be a seismic cultural shift, and every time absolutely nothing of the sort happened.
You can keep repeating this garbage until you're blue in the face, it won't make it any more true or change the fact that history has proven you wrong over and over and over again.

Here's what I actually do think is interesting, and something that is a relatively recent development. Basically from the end of WW2 until a few years ago, what was considered to be part of the left-wing and right-wing ideologies in Europe was pretty clearly defined. A big part of it had always been that the economic argument was the argument of the right; the right was pragmatic and practical while the left was overly idealistic with their socialist/multi-culturalist utopia. Now the reality has finally started to sink in that since a free market economy depends on constant growth and we've pretty much stopped making babies, our current economic system requires constant immigration to sustain it. In other words, you can't be anti-immigration and pro economic growth at the same time. So now all of a sudden you have traditional allies of the right in business siding with the left on immigration because the right-wing politicians won't tone down the racist populism, and the left has to come to terms with the fact that globalization is the driving force between the migration they've always defended in the name of empathy and human rights. I'm really curious to see where that is going.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by hipster holocaust »

I'm actually digging the input from the people that clearly watch too much TV :awesome:
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by nomb »

- Migration has always happened; sometimes more, sometimes less.

- Assimilation/integration is not something that can be achieved within one to three generations. In Germany we have quite some experience with this, as we have experienced several waves of migrants after WWII. We have lots of Greeks, Italians, some Spaniards, lots of Russians etc. but most of all we have Turks. Millions of Turks. That's okay though, by now many of them have university degrees and decided to go back to Turkey. In fact, during the last few years, more Turkish people have left Germany to go back to Turkey than came here.

- I don't belong to the people waiting at the train station in Munich, clapping when the migrants arrive, i.e. I don't feel like I am blindly euphoric and all that, but at the same time I feel like migration of this size to Germany might present us some challenges. Most of all though, I think we cannot tell what will happen. I'm not scared of "islamization", most of the young people will fall prey to our attractive European, western style of living. Most Turkish people here aren't very religious at all, they drink beer, get drunk, fuck around, drop out of school,listen to shitty Hiphop etc.
Most conservatives don't realize that the "islamization" they claim is going to happen, would have a lot more in common with their own ideals than with any current European ideals.

There is a lot more to be said about this though. To get back to the question of the OP ("what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?"): In my little town very close to Frankfurt, nothing much has happened or changed.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by spacehamster »

nomb wrote:I feel like migration of this size to Germany might present us some challenges.
The biggest problem with the whole conversation, sadly, is still that somehow this point of view isn't allowed - everyone either insists immigration is 100% problem free and the more, the merrier, or they're screaming about islamization and predicting the end of Western culture within the next five years. It's fucking retarded.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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spacehamster wrote:
nomb wrote:I feel like migration of this size to Germany might present us some challenges.
The biggest problem with the whole conversation, sadly, is still that somehow this point of view isn't allowed - everyone either insists immigration is 100% problem free and the more, the merrier, or they're screaming about islamization and predicting the end of Western culture within the next five years. It's fucking retarded.
By now it's gotten better I think, during the first few days or weeks, you were basically Hitler for trying to have some sort of differentiated view on things. This is Germany though, on a macroscopic scale, we still have to learn how be critical of immigration or realistic about it without the ideological trappings of the extreme ends of the political spectrum.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by Cascade Whore »

spacehamster wrote:
nomb wrote:I feel like migration of this size to Germany might present us some challenges.
The biggest problem with the whole conversation, sadly, is still that somehow this point of view isn't allowed - everyone either insists immigration is 100% problem free and the more, the merrier, or they're screaming about islamization and predicting the end of Western culture within the next five years. It's fucking retarded.
I find it hilarious the whole time the conservative shit head crew is screaming about how right they are they can't post a single fact, statistic or anything to back it up. I mean, there will usually be links to some rightwing blog or video but they couldn't even bother to do that this time
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by nomb »

Well they don't have to. It's pretty easy to just point to the banlieues of Paris, Charlie Hebdo, Rotherham etc. and they are right that not all things are perfectly fine, in fact I agree that lots of things are going totally wrong when it comes to immigration in Europe or handling our post colonial heritage (and that's what alot of these things are), but at the same time I know they are just cherry picking the worst.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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nomb wrote:It's pretty easy to just point to the banlieues of Paris, Charlie Hebdo, Rotherham etc. and they are right that not all things are perfectly fine
They're not saying "not everything is perfectly fine", though, they're basically saying we're going to be an islamic continent in 10 years.

Also, any rational analysis of the Paris banlieues or any of these issues will tell you that they're mostly the result of failed immigration policies. The Turks, for example, have never been as much of an issue here in Switzerland as they were/are in Germany, and conversely, Germany doesn't seem to have much of a problem dealing with Kosovars, whereas we pretty much fucked that one up. If this all just stemmed from cultures that are "impossible to assimilate", shouldn't everyone have the same problems?

But of course that's at least partially the left's fault, because the first step to functioning immigration policies is admitting that it's not something that just sorts itself out.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by riley-o »

nomb wrote: Most conservatives don't realize that the "islamization" they claim is going to happen, would have a lot more in common with their own ideals than with any current European ideals.
:tup: i'm sort of surprised more people don't realize this -- conservatives would LOVE an Islamic world if they could get over calling God a different name
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by Cascade Whore »

Aren't turks generally more secular anyways? I really hate saying anything to lend credence to their narrative
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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Cascade Whore wrote:Aren't turks generally more secular anyways? I really hate saying anything to lend credence to their narrative
Not really. The country's government has a more conflicted relationship with religion than others, and it's certainly no Saudi Arabia or anything, but part of that is for example that they had aggressive anti-religious policies for a while because the government was afraid of the radical Muslims in its population. A lot of the earlier immigrants brought with them the conservative bullshit ideas you'd expect - I had a Turkish friend in primary school whose mom I literally saw outside of the kitchen one time, and she was always wearing a headscarf when I was there.

But first of all, that's not everyone (don't forget the people who are here wanted to get away from their country of origin, albeit not everyone for the same reasons), and more importantly, the second generation grows up in the secular West and would like to be a part of it. I've got stories from when I taught at a school with a lot of Muslim immigrant kids, especially girls, obviously torn between their friends' world and the conservative values their parents tried to enforce. If you let them, the majority will choose secularism and freedom because, uh, they're obviously better. What happened in the Paris banlieues and with the Turks in Germany or the Kosovars in Switzerland is that you've got these young guys who are constantly being shit on by the society they want to be a part of, so their way to rebel and find an identity for themselves is to retreat into their parents' world of conservative, ass-backwards rural Islam. And then violence happens. I mean, what do teenage boys do if you constantly tell them they're pieces of shit? They try to prove you right, everytime.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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spacehamster wrote:
nomb wrote:It's pretty easy to just point to the banlieues of Paris, Charlie Hebdo, Rotherham etc. and they are right that not all things are perfectly fine
They're not saying "not everything is perfectly fine", though, they're basically saying we're going to be an islamic continent in 10 years.

Also, any rational analysis of the Paris banlieues or any of these issues will tell you that they're mostly the result of failed immigration policies. The Turks, for example, have never been as much of an issue here in Switzerland as they were/are in Germany, and conversely, Germany doesn't seem to have much of a problem dealing with Kosovars, whereas we pretty much fucked that one up. If this all just stemmed from cultures that are "impossible to assimilate", shouldn't everyone have the same problems?

But of course that's at least partially the left's fault, because the first step to functioning immigration policies is admitting that it's not something that just sorts itself out.
I agree with all of this.
Cascade Whore wrote:Aren't turks generally more secular anyways? I really hate saying anything to lend credence to their narrative
Yeah, many of them are, but they are mainly centered in the big cities like Ankara, Istanbul etc. i.e. well educated people from urban areas, so mostly people that don't have to migrate to Germany. Germany has lots of people from eastern Anatolia, they tend to be more conserative, but their children and grandchildren here in Germany are increasingly spoiled by our way of life. That's the Turks I guess. "Istanbul is not Turkey" lots of them say.
Turkey is in a weird spot, it's too European for the Arabian world but also too "middle-eastern" for Europe. The majority of its people is Muslim (but not Arabic), but it's a secular country with separation of church and state. They're almost traitors to the Arabs for kissing up to Europe, but Europe doesn't see that Turkey has a lot in common with them.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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nomb wrote: I don't belong to the people waiting at the train station in Munich, clapping when the migrants arrive, i.e. I don't feel like I am blindly euphoric and all that, but at the same time I feel like migration of this size to Germany might present us some challenges. Most of all though, I think we cannot tell what will happen.
I'm not sure, but this type of thinking could label you as a scum Nazi fuck to certain people around here.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

Post by Geeheeb »

zero people think that way here, otoh you listen to black metal
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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Cascade Whore wrote:I find it hilarious the whole time the conservative shit head crew is screaming about how right they are they can't post a single fact, statistic or anything to back it up. I mean, there will usually be links to some rightwing blog or video but they couldn't even bother to do that this time
Why am I not surprised that someone who is well into his 30s and lines up tins of spam at the local Piggly Wiggly for $9/hr is incapable of typing the phrase "Syrian refugee statistics" or similar variant into a search engine in order to find out what we're referring to.
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Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?

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I don't make $9 an hour. I'm actually an illegal alien working for tips only at a car wash
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