The Bill's Now Playing Video Game Thread (Now with Bames)

[spacehamster]

I think more interesting and accessible than the violent games = violence is how media really does help shape our attitudes and how we think of different kinds of people, whether we want to believe it or not.

Sure, but that's a complex issue to say the least, and I don't see how some chick with a Youtube account and a Kickstarter's going to add anything significant to that conversation. And I was never under the impression that she made anyone think she was going to do that. It was meant to be some sort of extremely comprehensive analysis of sexist tropes in videogame narratives, and as such it falls flat on its face because she's come up with exactly nothing new, regurgitates things Gail Simone wrote 14 years ago and then makes absolute non-connections to real life violence. It's shitty even by Youtube rant video standards.

[Spooky Apparition]

my quick/flippant response to her: games, the stories contained in them and our reactions to them (which is her main focus in this video, and what she seems to be worried about in general) shouldn't be viewed as an analog to how we consume/interpret other entertainment/artistic content because the required participatory element will always undermine, if not outright determine, the narrative content.

if it was possible (and more importantly FUN) for super mario bros. to be about mario having a serious discussion with every enemy in the game, eschewing violence and making it really clear his attempt to rescue the princess is because he sees her as an equal, it would have been done a long time ago. there are tons of nonviolent games, and the biggest thing those have in common is they usually don't have normal human beings as characters (flower or journey for example, since i just played those, or any puzzle game, etc).

but when it comes to trying to create "realistic" humans in games, the best developers can do is create characterization through cinemas/dialogue. even in the most non-male-centric games, those cinemas always have to route the player back toward a central conflict, yes, usually based around violence/revenge, because in the context of an interactive game it has its own built-in end point and climax. developers might be guilty of taking the easy way out and not creating a new conflict paradigm or something, but i don't think they're guilty of hating women.

now if her problem is just dumb game writing, i agree with her that a lot of it is juvenile, but in these videos she's getting closer to a critique of how games are structured vis-a-vis their inclusion of females. there are more and more games with female leads, and the fact they're usually structured like male-led games (revenge, violence, etc.) isn't reverse-misogyny. it's just a natural result of the way character and action-based games are made, and maybe HAVE to be made until someone figures out a way to make crying in a game something fun to do.

TL;DR hate the player('s attitude), not the game

[spacehamster]

TL;DR hate the player('s attitude), not the game

Is it really the players, or is it who the publishers think their players are? I always think it's interesting to look at this sort of thing and ask what assumptions there are at play about the target demographic. And the strange thing with games is, it looks to me like there's a genuine disconnect there. AFAIK, satistics will tell you that the average age of "gamers" is around 30 and there's a growing number of women playing videogames (I'm not fact-checking either until somebody gives me 100K to report my findings on Youtube), yet the typical game narrative still seems to be targeting adolescent males. A lot of us playing this stuff into our 30s actually think the stories are stupid and the misogyny is sort of embarrassing (remember the rape joke trophy in GOW3?), we just kind of accept it as being part of the medium's growing pains. So the real question to me is, why is this still happening? That would be interesting to look into, and it would be something one individual with enough time and money on their hands could actually dig up some answers to. But all these "feminist critics" who have descended on gaming like a flock of angry harpies recently are asking the wrong questions because they're the questions their Gender Studies 101 classes have taught them to ask.

[storm shadow]

And the complaint about the kickstarter money is completely bogus. She asked for like $15k and people gave her more. It's not like she failed to deliver any content and bought fake boobs instead. She's rolling out videos consistently and will probably be doing so for the next few years. Are you mad at people who win the lottery? This is a more reasonable windfall. I think you should go ahead with the MGS project though

Is it though? In the final analysis isn't she just asking people for money to sit around playing video games? I don't think this is my male privilege talking so much as my jadedness towards critical theory and English majors.

What if this project was about, say, traveling around and interviewing women involved in the video game industry and other traditionally "geek" niches (e.g. comics)? Or interviewing prominent game creators (e.g. Kojima, Suda51, etc.) about the kind of assumptions spacehamster mentioned in his last post? I know that I'd be a lot more receptive, and might even throw her a few bucks.

I don't blame her at all for all the money she ended up getting, but I don't really understand why she needed to solicit donations to begin with. I mean maybe I'm just an ignorant straight white oppressor but seriously, how difficult is it to make these kinds of YouTube videos? Did she explicitly outline what the money would be going toward, e.g. special software? There are hundreds and hundreds of posts on Tumblr and Livejournal that feature the exact same kind of content as her videos.

I think you should go ahead with the MGS project though

[Necrometer]

Isn't that an entirely different field - like a psychology study? I don't think that's within the scope. Anyway, there were a handful of non-"no shit" moments for me in this one.

I don't think it's asking too much for her to have some reasearch on the impact these tropes have and why they're potentially harmful. I'm not asking for her to do psychological profiles or give a medical opinion. Glad to hear there were some non-"no shit" moments here though. Looking forward to it.

She addresses some of this stuff around 20:00 of the current video. She's not ignoring it. I still don't think it's on her to prove that these games help shape society and that the society's shape contributes to the actions that do/don't happen.

I think SOME of the complaints about the kickstarter are unfounded, but I DO think she should have either shut it off after 20 or so OR expandeded the project to relfect the 100 grand budget.

She posted stretch goals, and she is definitely expanding the project. "Damsel in Distress" was initially going to be one of 5 topics she covered, and it currently looks like DiD is getting four videos for >1 hour of critique. Those 5 topics were boosted to 12 via stretch goals:

SPOILERSPOILER_SHOW

Damsel in Distress - Video #1
The Fighting F#@k Toy - Video #2
The Sexy Sidekick - Video #3
The Sexy Villainess - Video #4
Background Decoration - Video #5
Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress - Video #6
Women as Reward - Video #7
Mrs. Male Character - Video #8
Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9
Man with Boobs - Video #10
Positive Female Characters! - Video #11
Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games - Video #12

You'll probably be happy to know about one of her last stretch goals:

Tropes vs Women in Video Games Curriculum
I believe that video games and gaming in general should be integrated into classrooms and educational institutions to a much larger degree. With this in mind, I will create a curriculum with teaching guides and classroom activities to accompany this Tropes vs Women in Gaming video series. My hope is that this curriculum can serve as a small example of how discussions around gaming can be an important part of media literacy education. These mini-lesson plans and classroom exercises focusing on female representations in video games will offer teachers an easy way to encourage critical thinking, enhance media literacy skills and promote conversations about gender representations in the mass media with their students. This curriculum will be Creative Commons licensed making it available for anyone to download and use with their schools, organizations or families.

Is it crass for her to live off the money people gave her for this project? I think the work so far does reflect her committing to these full-time, so she's using it as promised. I have been paid via research grants for almost a decade and the bulk of that money goes to my rent and food. Am I being crass? She essentially won a grant from the public to do something, and now she is doing it.

I don't blame her at all for all the money she ended up getting, but I don't really understand why she needed to solicit donations to begin with. I mean maybe I'm just an ignorant straight white oppressor but seriously, how difficult is it to make these kinds of YouTube videos? Did she explicitly outline what the money would be going toward, e.g. special software? There are hundreds and hundreds of posts on Tumblr and Livejournal that feature the exact same kind of content as her videos.

There was a stretch goal about updating her equipment, but that stuff wasn't necessary. See above about the curriculum.

As for why funding was necessary: she's been doing pop criticism videos for a while sans funding (I think one previous series was sponsored by a magazine?) and I think they're solid. It probably came to a point where she had to decide between doing a 9-5 job and halting production of future videos, so she said "fuck it" and made a kickstarter. Is that unreasonable? She's not just asking for money to play videogames; she's asking for support to continue doing her established thing that some people find valuable.

I agree with you and Mike that an extra stretch goal involving developer interviews would go a long way. It could still happen nonetheless.

[Necrometer]

None of the grant money I've been awarded has gone to supplies or equipment.

She, too, has produced tons of content for free, almost certainly in her free time. People think it's valuable and they were willing to support her to make more. Thanks to that support, this is her job for a while. She likely "needed" money to get this massive project done in a timely fashion just like you "needed" money to cover your travel expenses.

[storm shadow]

I guess what it comes down to for me is that not all areas of research are created equal. Without even knowing about the kind of research you do Ross, I can confidently say that your work != this. I'm not an "only STEM is real" type either; I definitely think there's a place for the traditional humanities, and that crisp, thoughtful feminist input is always welcome.

But to someone asking for money for any kind of post-structuralist "reading" of mass media "texts" I can only say:

enough

[Spooky Apparition]

TIL it requires $100K to take a '60s feminist critique of hemingway and replace "book" with "game"

[Necrometer]

I'll happily compare her research with my field. I remember losing out on a grant competition to an applicant who was planning to count snakes in a forest. How in the fuck is that helping anyone?

When I was a kid, I always assumed that video games were something one grew out of. I was a little bit surprised to find that the industry grew up with the kids of the '70s/'80s and became the juggernaut it is today. I believe that for an alarming number of people, whether they realize/acknowledge it or not, games provide the greatest single source of accomplishment and satisfaction in their lives. The mechanics tap into one's urge to tackle surmountable challenges; the education system does the same for many, but many are also unable to satisfy this urge in post-school work or social spheres. So it's fulfilled via hobbies, a staggering share of which is gaming. Accordingly, I believe games have great power to convey themes and messages since they are such a compelling part of so many people's lives.

I think you've stated that it's obvious that misogyny is rampant in games. Misogyny is not exclusively inherent and it's not exclusively emergent. Biology is inflexible but society is much more mutable. Her goal is to increase literacy of gaming themes and to boost awareness of the misogynistic elements in modern games. Her audience is the people who don't realize the strength of the messages coming at them, people who are unaware of the tenets of feminism. They need it to be presented at the 101 level. So her videos are a first step in bringing about social change. I think that's more valuable than counting snakes in the woods (which is more important than my work, remember). And 7,000 others agree, hence the mandate.

Again: Geoff & SS have liberal arts degrees, right? You are too informed to qualify as her audience.

Re: the "fund my life" shit; she is now doing this as a full-time job, just like any schmoe that will be paid to work on the $1M games that have been funded. Games can be made on one's free time just like any other digital output. They are being paid for their time; time they're not going to be using to generate other income. She was supported to generate output, and generate it she will.

[spacehamster]

Can we move Ross' white-knighting of the feminist Nina lookalike back to the feminism thread please?

[Necrometer]

ahahaha... bringing this back since I don't think there's too much left to say

I think you're lumping me in with others. Pretty sure I'm on record as saying that it's good that this sexism in games is getting some light. And I understand what you're saying about me being disqualified because I've studied this stuff before-- but that doesn't mean I can't gently critique and say it needs more direction.

I don't think I lumped you too bad; most of that explanation was not for you, it was me trying to make a standalone case.

The SA/SH point about the developers and their perceived audience is a good one. I guess the boost in literact or critical thinking will help well-meaning gamers be a little more thoughtful and discerning, moving the industry to a less tired set of tropes.

[a world of no]

Ross... OUT!

[The Bill]

Those slightly older used game I briefly mentioned purchasing arrived at my job this weekend.

1) Resident Evil (GameCube remake) Wii version, which lets me use the classic controller Stopped playing the PSOne version after the lizard men showed up, after I killed the plant

2) Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem, I'm feeling the need for survival horror. Wonder if it's little tricks and gimmicks will age well. Never played this title.

3) Metriod Prime, I owned this one once but it kept freezing up on the same point over and over. I became dejected with it and sold it back. Well, running via the Wii I hope this snafu as been corrected.

[storm shadow]

Metroid Prime is my favorite Metroid game, hands down. Full of discovery and wonder.

And scanning. I fucking love the scanning.

[Wang Mandu]

Well, it's certainly clear that publishers don't want to take ANY risks when it comes to gender. I read an article where the dev team for The Last of Us had to fight tooth and nail to get the famle lead on the game box. She's been a part of the image now since they first started showing the game and I don't see male gamers being thrown by it. I DO think a lot of the publishers are out of touch

They could start by actually playing games.

Let's hope Naughty Dog fought tooth and nail to design combat encounters more varied than room --> wave of enemies --> room --> wave of enemies and non-crappy aiming.

[The Bill]

This silly game is free on Steam right now.



http://store.steampowered.com/app/238070/

Apparently, it's too powerful a game for my iMac at work to run it

[Wormholegenerator]

I hope they put Blood on steam

[The Bill]

I hope they put Blood on steam

It's on GOG along with Blood 2, if that helps. Also, GOG uses a more recent version of DOSBOX

[The Bill]

Metroid Prime is my favorite Metroid game, hands down. Full of discovery and wonder.

And scanning. I fucking love the scanning.

Hmm? Yes, well, how does it stack up to other FPS? I did play it once all those years ago. I felt at the time that, while very polished, the first person POV was more novelty, and it felt like a platform game rather than anything else. Of course, this was before I ever played a Fallout 3 or Morrowind or STALKER, maybe even NOLF 2, so my expectations of what a FPS is was probably rather different back then.

[storm shadow]

Metroid Prime is my favorite Metroid game, hands down. Full of discovery and wonder.

And scanning. I fucking love the scanning.

Hmm? Yes, well, how does it stack up to other FPS? I did play it once all those years ago. I felt at the time that, while very polished, the first person POV was more novelty, and it felt like a platform game rather than anything else. Of course, this was before I ever played a Fallout 3 or Morrowind or STALKER, maybe even NOLF 2, so my expectations of what a FPS is was probably rather different back then.

Yeah you're pretty much spot on actually. It's been a few years since I played it, but the thing about MP is that it really isn't an FPS: it's very much a Metroid game that happens to be in first person. The FPS and slick graphics were just a way to make the classic Super Metroid experience more immersive and magical (for me anyway).

Also, the music fucking rules.

[godofdeadlydeath]

Metroid Prime is my favorite Metroid game, hands down. Full of discovery and wonder.

And scanning. I fucking love the scanning.

Hmm? Yes, well, how does it stack up to other FPS? I did play it once all those years ago. I felt at the time that, while very polished, the first person POV was more novelty, and it felt like a platform game rather than anything else. Of course, this was before I ever played a Fallout 3 or Morrowind or STALKER, maybe even NOLF 2, so my expectations of what a FPS is was probably rather different back then.

Yeah you're pretty much spot on actually. It's been a few years since I played it, but the thing about MP is that it really isn't an FPS: it's very much a Metroid game that happens to be in first person. The FPS and slick graphics were just a way to make the classic Super Metroid experience more immersive and magical (for me anyway).

Also, the music fucking rules.

Agreed, the music in Metroid Prime was phenomenal. One of the few FPS games I actually had the patience to finish without getting completed bored out of my mind or so frustrated that I give up. MP2 was really good too, but I never finished that one.

[The Bill]

Still have cash money bucks tied up in Amazonian currencies, so thinking about also getting Luigi's Mansion (Gamecube). Talk to me about it, bro!



I also need to see if I still own Time Splitters 2 and Imperfect. I fear I might have purged them during my stupid stupid stupid I don't want to deal with these old games anymore phase I had a few years ago, when I was cleaning out the attic. Luckily, my wife forgot to throw out a bag that contained the N64 and a bunch of it's games. I still have the Gamecube, but the Wii makes it obsolete.

[The Bill]

I'm not such a fucking asshole after all. Right there, behind my kids' painting easel, I had a rack with what I thought was just some of my wife's crappy DVD's and some old and even crappier WWE ones. Fucking score:

1) Timesplitters 2 (PS2)
2) Timesplitters Future Perfect (PS2)
3) Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes (GC)
4) Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (GC)
5) Paper Mario (Wii)

I 'v only ever beaten MGS from that list. Plus Plus, a bunch of XBOX Original games like The Thing, Suffering, XIII. A few other things, not sure how great they are.

Man, looks like PS4 and ONE have a ton of time to convince me which one to get. I'll be busy till the cows come home. Not my home, though. No fat chicks allowed.

Tonight we continue Silent Hill. If I beat it (no idea how long this game is, but I feel I've made great headway), then it's... Secret of Mana. Yeah, that's a good switch over.

[copstache]

timesplitters 2 owns.

[The Bill]

timesplitters 2 owns.

I had tremendous fun playing the original Timespilitters, despite being a graphics snob at the time, and not yet acclimated into the world of FPS using a control pad.