fuck the 'new poor'

[zzzzzzzz]

If I move to a new city and make $1500 a month thats doing pretty damn good. I'm fixing up a van like a camper inside and I'm going to travel around and make a life a camping trip (since damn near everyones retirement dreams are "I just want to travel" I 'll just do it now), hopefully I can start a band while doing this. I'm not getting stuck in the same fucking spot, being poor doesn't have to trap you anywhere and I don't want to be stuck paying for some fucking house that will feel like a prison within a year. I'll save that shit for when I'm old, being poor and homeless isn't that damn scary if you know how to handle it, its really damn hard to starve to death in this country.

[Glass Asshole]

You can do a grind band out of your van.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

I also don't want to lose sight of my disdain for the machinery that keeps people who make, say, $4,000 a month thinking that they're somehow not poor. Noah's sarcasm is well taken. Poor people have long been squandering what they have at pubs, and what do you suggest? that the poor should be robbed of every joy they have?

C'mon man, even the poorest people here are living REAL cozy compared to the shit most people in the rest of the world have to put up with. Where's your existentialism? This whole "wealth --> happiness" thing is not an absolute concept, it's relative. But that relativity only goes as far as one can see. So the poor people in USA are not actually having universal/objective "bad" living conditions on a global scale. I don't understand how people (e.g. you and EEEOOO) start out with this assumption that since civilization exists, the LEAST we should tolerate is comfy/lavish suburban living for everyone in the country? People are not living in squallor, and they're not fighting for their lives. People are on unemployment and still have internet and DVR and a car. How are these necessities for life? The reason I have no sympathy for the new poor is because I see the utter stupidity in people's attempts to "keep up with the Joneses" when they have money - it's not a problem of economics when these peope become "poor", it's a social problem. They'd rather go deep into debt than be forced to re-evaluate their standing in this imaginary competition to be "doing well" in the eyes of their peers. If you guys know how many of these people's homes were loaded with the most useless bullshit products... no... I have no sympathy for them.

Noah... average people will always be "feeling the pinch" of not being rich, it's human nature. You're living in a retardedly expensive city, if you are not rich enough to live there, go somewhere else. This whole country (no idea about Canada) is a luxury cruise compared to other parts of the world or other times in history, but of course EVERYONE needs MORE, right?

Oh a new Noah post - hey brainiac if you want to feel richer move to a place with a lower cost of living. This shit is not complicated.

Ross, of course everything is relative but becomes a fruitless exercise in reducing the lowest common denominator if you make an ideology of the task. Yes, some of our poor are doing quite well when compared to others in the world. However, and this is where I temper my existential beliefs with anarchist politics, because we are living in a society with these expectations of success and status foisted on us by a system designed to keep a majority of workers slaving, I don't have the venom some of you do for a guy living in a trailer who goes into debt buying a blu ray player with his disability check. I see it as extremely sad. And when I'm reviewing the credit check on this guy, preparing to evict him for non-pay of rent, and I notice all the collections against him cited as MEDICAL because he works for an employer that doesn't provide him insurance, my primary anger is for a system that supports this shit, rather than lecturing the poor guy about his spending choices. Fuck man, where's your compassion? Sure, maybe this job is getting to me, maybe it's true that I grew up in a cabin in the mountains, grew up poor, that I used to help my dad run a homeless shelter in San Mateo, that I joined the fucking military because I didn't have money to fix the cavities I had since I didn't have any insurance, and even though I understand just as you understand that the "keeping up with the Joneses" crap is a lie, most aren't equipped to break from that, so overwhelmingly sold as reality it is in this country.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

I get that this is more a "laughing at the middle class" sort of thread. But what the fuck? Seriously. Blame the rich! What the hell is wrong with you jerks?

[Geeheeb]

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

Wow, that is one ugly broad.

[Bored, Esq.]

I still see this recession as the tip of the iceberg, basically. I think America's place in the world economy is going to sink down to what it actually deserves, not what it think it needs. So that means a corresponding "lowering of standards" for most people...if they've inherited expectations from their parents, a completely different generation, they're going to have to rethink those. For a long time people are going to think they're somehow being deprived, but they'll adjust. Our entire economy is going through a massive paradigm shift right now...but the world economy is also.

People who look at classical models of capitalist exploitation and then apply them ONLY to American lives are kind of missing the point, even now. Capital is worldwide and it's not nationalistic...the poor/working classes aren't necessarily here, they're all over the place...often hidden from our view. As the standard of living for the average American worker shrinks to the point where it matches up with what people in other countries are experiencing THEN they'll start to understand.

But yes, it's getting worse all the time. This is not a temporary thing and it's not going to end with everything "going back to normal", the way it was even 5 years ago.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

I still see this recession as the tip of the iceberg, basically. I think America's place in the world economy is going to sink down to what it actually deserves, not what it think it needs. So that means a corresponding "lowering of standards" for most people...if they've inherited expectations from their parents, a completely different generation, they're going to have to rethink those. For a long time people are going to think they're somehow being deprived, but they'll adjust. Our entire economy is going through a massive paradigm shift right now...but the world economy is also.

People who look at classical models of capitalist exploitation and then apply them ONLY to American lives are kind of missing the point, even now. Capital is worldwide and it's not nationalistic...the poor/working classes aren't necessarily here, they're all over the place...often hidden from our view. As the standard of living for the average American worker shrinks to the point where it matches up with what people in other countries are experiencing THEN they'll start to understand.

But yes, it's getting worse all the time. This is not a temporary thing and it's not going to end with everything "going back to normal", the way it was even 5 years ago.

I doubt this is going to happen, but I wish it would, if only it would serve to establish more helpful government support, socialize a lot of stuff, so that while we grew poorer, we at least had some compensation in the form of humane services; but we all know that's not going to happen. I just think that America the Beautiful is going to rape whatever it has to in order to right itself again. The cycle continues. I wish I smelled your apocalypse in the air.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

Okay, never mind, the feeling has passed me and I'm ready to make fun of people again. Fucking assholes and their "hard lives," whatever. Psh.

(The outcome of that guy I evicted? He was living in an RV, not a mobilehome. He lost his job and couldn't find a new one. I gave him three months of not paying rent to try and find another job, which got me in a little trouble at work. He couldn't get on his feet so I served him with papers. He borrowed a tent from his friend and set it up in a field about 300 meters away from the mobilehome park, just close enough to watch us remove his RV and give it to a charity. At least he got to keep his blu ray player. No. That part was made up. He tells us that he's going to work on his friend's horse ranch, but I think he's lying to make himself or us feel better, since we see him in his tent every day.)

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

And as proof that I'm no fucking different, I wasted $40 on these awesome solid metal dice when I promised myself I was going to put the money into savings for the day my car breaks down.



They're sturdy so I can bring them to the shelter when I'm gaming as a homeless man. Plus you can put them in a sock and weaponize them.

[Glass Asshole]

The recession will never touch your D&D character. Capitalism has it's limits. There are safe places in this world after all.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

Also, I've spent the last three years learning mobilehome and apartment law, so if anyone wants free advice, just ask and I'll totally help you out.

For instance, say you feed stray cats and they begin to lounge around your mobilehome/apartment, and the manager begins trapping them, citing state law on regulations concerning roaming animals, and charges you $25 per trapped animal. You can fight that. They only have the right to cite you on rules and regulations; they can't charge you for it. I tried to charge an old insane lady. Guess she was sane enough to say no.

I will teach you the tricks.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

The recession will never touch your D&D character. Capitalism has it's limits. There are safe places in this world after all.

One can always retreat into one's mind. Unless you're in an institution where they sedate you with drugs. That sounds like hell to me. Even in Wisconsin prisons where they outlawed D&D, you can still game dicelessly. Need randomized numbers but aren't allowed or can't afford dice? Easy. The GM holds a number of fingers on both hands behind his back and a player does the same, then they compare and add; if the number is bigger than ten, subtract it from ten. Prisoners can tattoo skills and stats on their forearms for reference.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

Quick, what's the most important thing you can do when facing a landlord in court?

Answer: Find out if the judges in your county are more tenant-friendly than landlord-friendly. If so, dress nicely, act politely, lie when you can get away with it, and the judge will often fuck the landlord if there's no damning evidence not to. Easy win. Some counties are so hostile to landlords that landlords won't waste the court fees going to court. In this case, negotiate with the landlord in a polite but firm, well-written letter sent by certified return receipt mail. Easy win.

[Glass Asshole]

[milkmandan]

The recession will never touch your D&D character. Capitalism has it's limits. There are safe places in this world after all.

This is amazing

[Necrometer]

Fuck man, where's your compassion? Sure, maybe this job is getting to me, maybe it's true that I grew up in a cabin in the mountains, grew up poor, that I used to help my dad run a homeless shelter in San Mateo, that I joined the fucking military because I didn't have money to fix the cavities I had since I didn't have any insurance, and even though I understand just as you understand that the "keeping up with the Joneses" crap is a lie, most aren't equipped to break from that, so overwhelmingly sold as reality it is in this country.

OK time is short so I can't respond to everything... I am not talking shit against people on disability or physically unable to work. I am talking about the overall outlook that everyone needs more, no matter what they have. Way too many people buy into it. Sure people aren't equipped to break from it, but does that mean their misguided struggles are legitimized? Not to me.

The Noah and Matt outlooks in this thread, in my opinion, are actually a defense of the stupid fucking system. You think it's sad if a newly poor guy can't buy a blu-ray player? That shit didn't even exist a few years ago, what is its actual worth? And yeah Noah I'm sorry that you can't afford to buy real estate in fucking TORONTO.

Maybe I have a different outlook on all this stuff because of my mom's side of the family... her parents came from nothing, and her 11 siblings make their way largely without college degrees. Most of them are raising families in trailers. But they're happy because they have a strong (in my opinion) sense of what actually matters.

I don't think the constantly rich are "winners" by any means, I think they should pay 50% taxes for social programs to take care of people who really need help. But... remember that fucking $600 stimulus check? Bandaid on a bullet hole, right?

People who look at classical models of capitalist exploitation and then apply them ONLY to American lives are kind of missing the point, even now. Capital is worldwide and it's not nationalistic...the poor/working classes aren't necessarily here, they're all over the place...often hidden from our view. As the standard of living for the average American worker shrinks to the point where it matches up with what people in other countries are experiencing THEN they'll start to understand.

This is a good point... apologists are sobbing over "our poor" when the reality of the global economy is that even our poorest are too good to suffer under the boot of manufacturing shit for US to buy at low, low prices.

that was one of the shittiest most over-generalizing posts I've ever read from you Ross.

edit: the only thing remotely true about your post is that as far as per capita income is concerned, the US currently ranks high in the world. even in that instance relative income has completely flatlined and we're dropping all the time, not to mention per capita income is irrelevant when the concentrations of rich people aren't taken into account. but aside from that (ultimately non-denotative) fact, that post reads like a Glenn Beck rant.

What did I write that's "not true"? You're saying that our poorest 10% don't have a higher standard of living than half the people in China or India? Or 90% of Africa?

[neckbeard]

Rents

[milkmandan]

Some of these "new poor" who were laid off from their IT jobs might be in market for blu-ray players again soon!

http://www.economist.com/businessfinanc ... d=15393732

tl;dr: India's IT workers fail to live up to standards as the Indian degree mills grind out new graduates for their IT industry.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

Let me get very real here. There shant be any absurd asides to call into question what I now say. Two weeks ago I patiently waited for the troublemaking president of the HOA to fuck up. Long have we had a war. She is not a good woman, though she thinks she is a crusader for the downtrodden; in reality she is retired and bored, prone to uppity nonsense. Her roof is falling apart and because I have her payment history I knew she didn't have the money to fix it. I called the HCD to inspect her home, and they cited her in violation of state code. HCD gave us a copy and cited us the same fine. We can now take this violation to a judge and be awarded an unlawful detainer for evictions against her.

Cut to me, moving out of my apartment into a new place, seeing that my security deposit of $1,900 was returned to me in the amount of a $350 check. The landlord didn't realize I was in property management, and stepped into a pile of shit, since he didn't itemize the deductions correctly, and charged me to repaint the whole place even though natural wear and tear in the state of California usually allows tenants of over two years to not have to pay a portion of this. Still though, I have to go to court to get the money back.

There is an old insane lady who rides a bike 11 miles to her janitorial position who will lose her home because the slumlord who is paying me told me to. Some say she used to be a brilliant professor. One of the stray cats she fed, which I trapped and took to the pound and tried to charge her for, had one of the early ID chips; the cat had been missing 13 years and was reunited with its past owners. I feel like a major dick.

My mom is dying of emphysema. Her disability checks couldn't cover the condo payments so the bank forclosed on her. The waiting list for the senior home nearby is still two years long. She eats a lot of soup. Which is cheap and affordable. And which suits the portion of her colon remaining after cancer. She might not have a place to live soon. And I rent a room. The American dream told both of us that I would be able to take care of her in her advanced age. Guilt weighs us both down to the point where we don't speak much.

There is a man in a tent this morning dreaming about working on a horse ranch.

I have thought long and hard about land ownership and tenancy, and given the chance, I would honestly do away with all of our wealth if I could take us from our apartments and gated homes and make us live in villages again where we'd know everyone around us, even the bad ones, and felt part of a community, each owning the simple structure we built, and no one owning us or the dirt we squat happily on. It wouldn't be a utopia, but it would be better than this sad thing I'm looking at now.

[spacehamster]

It never ceases to amaze me how the standard of living for the average American is beyond shitty compared to pretty much anywhere else in the developed world, yet the majority of your population insists that capitalism, like, totally works.

I know, throw in a few grammar germanisms and this sounds like something Krieg would say, but it's da troof.

[Geeheeb]

Wow, that is one ugly broad.

Inside and out, dude.

[Spooky Apparition]

It never ceases to amaze me how the standard of living for the average American is beyond shitty compared to pretty much anywhere else in the developed world, yet the majority of your population insists that capitalism, like, totally works.

yeah but who cares man, we're still better off than anyone in the Congo. we can let this stuff slide for a looooong time before we need to get worried.

[Kurt Russell's Beard]

Ross, I'm curiously not in the mood to argue with anyone today. I respect you. But I don't agree with everything you're saying, mainly because I think we're arguing about different things, though you don't realize it. Sorry if that sounds dismissive. Maybe it is. I'm glad your family is rooted in hard-won struggle. I'm not sure how many poor areas of the world you've walked through, I have no idea about your life experiences. It's not a contest. But I've been to poor areas in Indonesia, seen some squalor in the Philippines and Korea, some bad neighborhoods in Okinawa, very violent areas in East Timor, and the like. And yet some of the poor neighborhoods in the U.S. are just as tragic because of our division of wealth and the expectations and shame it instills. It isn't just about what you have or can afford; it's how you view that reality. Look, I'm not a real doctor; I only play one on TV. But if you can't see the very real pathos in a class of people who have little but for the shame and outrage it saddles them with, then I don't know, we might be arguing about the same thing, but you might not respect that. And that's fine. You've accused me of supporting this system in some ignorant irony. But to me, it's the people who lecture the poor on how better to succeed or model their aims in a society ill-suited for happiness that seem to be supporting the system. I have very real compassion for the scab who breaks a picket line; I empathize with pain. I just want the factory to be owned by the workers is all. And if that's "supporting the system" then I think you should check your terms.

Fuck land ownership. Fuck conveniences wrung from the slavery of others. Fuck division. Fuck shame because you can't afford the things they sell you, real or imagined. I'm not talking specifics, Ross. I think the portrait I'm painting is on a canvas larger than the field of your vision. Look around.

[spacehamster]

It never ceases to amaze me how the standard of living for the average American is beyond shitty compared to pretty much anywhere else in the developed world, yet the majority of your population insists that capitalism, like, totally works.

yeah but who cares man, we're still better off than anyone in the Congo.

Hahaha, yeah. And that attitude is exactly why you're eventually gonna get there. You already have the crime rate of a 3rd world country, and the standard of living isn't lagging too far behind. I know you're being sarcastic, I'm just saying. What's also funny is how when you point this out to a certain type of American, the knee-jerk response is "yeah, but that's because you're communists, and we have FREEDUM!!1" Yeah, okay, sure. I guess that means communism works? Ahem.