indomitable nth-wave feminism thread [RAPE CULTURE 101]

[The Torsion]

Lesbians, huh. I'm sure that has nothing at all to do with it. I'm actually all for gay couples adopting kids, but this one's, um, going to make that argument more difficult, let's say.

Wow just wow. Your cisprivileged cissexist homerphobic patriarchical transogyny is NOT OKAY. Rawss, plz do sumthing about this. I mean really?

[spacehamster]

I hear ya. Based in the millions of fuck ups that have come out of straight couples, I'm against those people adopting or breeding, too.

Well, yeah, sure, but this is comically close to the conservative TV shouty-head nightmare scenario of the homosexual agenda reprogramming our kids, don't you think? If you're trying to convince someone that gay couples adopting should be legal (and I absolutely do think that, just to be clear, before I get labeled a homophobe along with a murrsurrgunurr as well), and they bring up this story, what are you going to say?

The bottom line is, and I'm just saying this based on my professional background, this kid is fucking eleven years old. His identity isn't anywhere near formed, and almost everything he believes about himself can still change in the next ten years. He doesn't have a gender identity. I'm not ruling out the possiblity that he'll still say he's a woman trapped in the wrong body when he's 20, and if so, he can do whatever the hell he thinks should be done about it, it's his body. But he can't make that decision now, and nobody should be allowed to make it for him. And let's please not pretend like it's not pretty likely that his parents are a bit more receptive to the idea than the average straight couple might have been.

I guess what I'm really saying is that it pisses me off when decisions like this are made based on ideology and not what's in a kid's best interest.

[Ghost Dad]

Hahah I never assumed you were against gay adoption, I was just giving you a hard time. This situation is basically a right wing vignette of a lesbian couple raising a child. It seems pretty self serving for the parents, and it's some unfortunate cannon fodder for anti gay adoption.

[Natas]

If both families are similar and well adjusted I'd go with the straight couple adopting ten times out of ten.

[Foot Foot]

Hey, ladies — catcalls are flattering! Deal with it

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'll just leave this one here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[james]

I'll just leave this one here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

This is a difficult case because the doctor was fucking evil and crazy. He tortured those kids, and unfortunately I don't think we can learn much of anything about gender and socialization from those poor dudes lives. It's also possible that some sort of genetically inherited mood disorder would've sabotaged everything in the first place, even without burning the children's penises or sexually abusing them for science and all the other wonderful things that went on along the way.

I definitely don't think kids should be used as pawns in social wars. There are some people in a tough spot who are doing what they feel is best for their kid, trying to make the best call when they realize lil Johnny wants to wear a dress - and then there's a lot more who decide that changing the world starts at home. I grew up around a lot of homeschooled/fringeleft kids whose parents had all manner of strange ideas about society, and almost every single one of them now leads a terribly troubled life. This is true of a lot of kids I know who grew up in crazy rightwing/Christian communes too, of course, it's not a political thing really. It's just people who never really found their place in the straight world finding themselves with kids, not really understanding what it takes to properly socialize a child and make sure they can swim with the other fish once it's time to leave Hogwarts Academy for Special Snowflake Moonbats.

I've come to think that most of the people who do things like this with their children are narcissists who view other people as an extension of themselves. I'm certainly not talking about gay parents here, of course - but that kid in particular looks unnervingly familiar to me, and I don't think good things are coming his way. I really hope I'm wrong.

I often wonder what we're going to learn about psychological/sexual development once we can take a look at all the kids currently growing up in households headed by openly gay couples. I get yelled at a lot for fretting about it because it's just assumed that the anxiety is somehow homophobic or regressive, but it is a massive social experiment with an outcome that will be measured in human lives. knowe

[Necrometer]

this one suffers from some of the same problems as "part 1" but I think it's stronger overall. the whole argument would be stronger if part 1 were omitted, actually

"subverts the dominant paradigm" in the closing sentence

[copstache]

fuckin'... she makes the worst arguments. she really loves to point out when games let you beat up women (when you can beat up any other NPC in the game - Sleeping Dogs, first video) or when women are attacked by NPCs to "give you something to do" (Watch Dogs - those same procedurally generated missions ended up being like 3/4 men being assaulted when I played it).

I didn't watch the whole thing but someone pointed out in this video or the previous one that she said the player was actively encouraged to murder strippers in Hitman: Absolution, which couldn't be further from the truth. you CAN do it, but like anything else that's outside the scope of your mission, you lose points, and will probably die from drawing too much attention.

you can't just say "this game lets you assault women and that's wrong" when you can beat up any person of any gender in the game. if you want to criticize it for being a psychopathy simulator, I'm listening.

it's so disappointing that the people that attack her can't provide compelling counter-arguments when so much of her logic is flawed (even if it's well-meaning). she sucks at this. she's a terrible person to be in the front lines of whatever the fuck this is.

community college metal.

[Cryptoplasty]

I'm not watching that video, but I hope it concludes with her jumping off a building head first.

[riley-o]

community college metal.

[a world of no]

next level.

[Natas]

I'll just leave this one here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

This is a difficult case because the doctor was fucking evil and crazy. He tortured those kids, and unfortunately I don't think we can learn much of anything about gender and socialization from those poor dudes lives. It's also possible that some sort of genetically inherited mood disorder would've sabotaged everything in the first place, even without burning the children's penises or sexually abusing them for science and all the other wonderful things that went on along the way.

I definitely don't think kids should be used as pawns in social wars. There are some people in a tough spot who are doing what they feel is best for their kid, trying to make the best call when they realize lil Johnny wants to wear a dress - and then there's a lot more who decide that changing the world starts at home. I grew up around a lot of homeschooled/fringeleft kids whose parents had all manner of strange ideas about society, and almost every single one of them now leads a terribly troubled life. This is true of a lot of kids I know who grew up in crazy rightwing/Christian communes too, of course, it's not a political thing really. It's just people who never really found their place in the straight world finding themselves with kids, not really understanding what it takes to properly socialize a child and make sure they can swim with the other fish once it's time to leave Hogwarts Academy for Special Snowflake Moonbats.

I've come to think that most of the people who do things like this with their children are narcissists who view other people as an extension of themselves. I'm certainly not talking about gay parents here, of course - but that kid in particular looks unnervingly familiar to me, and I don't think good things are coming his way. I really hope I'm wrong.

I often wonder what we're going to learn about psychological/sexual development once we can take a look at all the kids currently growing up in households headed by openly gay couples. I get yelled at a lot for fretting about it because it's just assumed that the anxiety is somehow homophobic or regressive, but it is a massive social experiment with an outcome that will be measured in human lives. knowe

haha classic james

[Natas]

<--- Will never watch one of her fucking videos, or that Fantano guy. I know who she is though, unfortunately.

[riley-o]

Have any game sites run any articles criticizing her videos, or are most of the critiques in this thread and in the rape threats she receives ? It'd be nice to see someone actually do a full response and see what the fallout is, because you guys are right on that her point is just trash backed by non-evidence shoe-horned in.

The most frustrating part to me is that there's a very interesting discussion to be had about how women in games, female gamers, and female programmers are treated, and instead of getting that, we get this tepid garbage.

[FVBTVS]

my response video would just be like, say, an entire playthrough of dark souls as a fat bitch with grey hair and a lot of 'what is it' gestures

[Necrometer]

you guys really don't think that women in games tend to be lazily sexualized in a way that often intersects with violent victimization, all in the name of titillating the straight-dude consumer base? I think she makes that point well enough in this video without overreaching or misrepresenting nearly as much as she did in the previous one. I feel like this video can only be written off as lazy or pointless only if you accept that women are "more sexual" than men in general, which is by no means an uncommon opinion, but if you don't subscribe to that idea it becomes pretty apparent that the set dressing women are presented in a sexist, stereotypical way (again, made worse by the harm that often comes their way). one problem with this observation (and a few other central ones of hers) is how easily it could be broadly applied to tons of other narrative media. but maybe it is especially heightened in guy-targeted games and worthy of a specific critique. a lot of TV/movies/books probably consider their audience to be less lopsided gender-wise and thus are less likely to go off the rails with some of the stuff that so blatantly sidelines/objectifies women.

for those looking for more cogent critique - I haven't seen much beyond the shitty rant videos that go too far in the dumb direction, or scattered comments in other zones like this

you can't just say "this game lets you assault women and that's wrong" when you can beat up any person of any gender in the game. if you want to criticize it for being a psychopathy simulator, I'm listening.

Her arguments are coming from someone who is just blindly attaching the most remedial of feminist theory to a medium she obviously hasn't even explored herself.

is this just bait for me to say "oh, so just because she's a woman she's never played games?"

[Natas]

Will she be doing a video about the treatment of women on construction sites & weeknight dart leagues at bars?

[spacehamster]

The most frustrating part to me is that there's a very interesting discussion to be had about how women in games, female gamers, and female programmers are treated, and instead of getting that, we get this tepid garbage.

[Spooky Apparition]

I can't help but notice she generally talks about open-world games in these videos. Open-world games are ALWAYS about killing disposable people. does that mean they all need to have strippers and dumb dialogue? No, but I think some of it comes about as a result of the underlying game design rather than developers aiming solely to titillate guys by treating women poorly. Personally, I think her videos would be more interesting if she examined why open-world game design tends to be more overtly violent toward caricatures of women (and men) than other games.

[Cryptoplasty]

there's a very interesting discussion to be had about how women in games, female gamers, and female programmers are treated.

not really

RE: Idle Thumbs....probabaly the most boring gaming podcast out there. I had to stop listening to it a while ago becuase all they talked about was The Walking Dead (their own fucking game), and 'ludonarrative dissonance.' All incredibly interesting stuff. Not suprized they forced themselves to throw a woman on there. That's the first podcast I would expect to do that.

[spacehamster]

"Reproduction is not in and of itself a critical commentary," she says. DE IRONY. SHE SO THICK.

Anyway, she's gone from reading a Gender Studies 101 term paper into a camera and not saying anything new or interesting to just flat-out not saying anything at all. This latest one is a sloppy, lazy mess. She makes no distinctions between concepts, outright contradicts herself, and just generally doesn't do much except slap together the most offensive footage she can find and saying THEY DO THIS TO WOMEN. THIS IS BAD. WOMEN'S BODIES. BAD. YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.

Barf.

[james]

[james]

[riley-o]

I'd love for someone to write a comprehensive rebuttal, citing where she contradicts herself, examples she could have used, and a real understanding of feminist politics applied to the world of gaming.. And just litter that sumbitch with rape threats.