Generic Business Oriented Website

Posted: **Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:32 pm**

Umm, that is basically the de facto anti-public education / "indoctrination" blurb that's repeatedly cited since it was allegedly one of the models that the US public education system was based upon. I know of it only because every goddamn libertarian I've ever tried Internet arguing with throws it around to justify abolishing public education, effectively throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What I'm saying is that quote has only a passing reference to what I said. There's always been a difference between institutions as they were intended by benevolent forces and how they become implemented in practice - this is parallel to the discussion of the intent of the Constitution versus how people today are interpreting it completely incorrectly due to personal bias and claiming that others are biased. The language the Constitution was written in was pretty goddamn explicit (by a bunch of lawyers) for a reason, and the morons in charge of the Texas board of education have proven they're unfit to teach anything but dogma. So, I'm talking about the spirit of public education, not the ugly side that any public institution could be criticized as.

Most "progressive" policies in American (hell, it's not uniquely American, let's face it) history have been perverted into something precisely opposite of its intent while most of the policies enacted by those anti-regulation, pro-corporate variety have been pretty faithful to their original intent, failed miserably, and we keep going back to it. The need to objectively measure educational achievements by marks and tests made a horrific combination with the business engineering machinations of post-WWII American industry and turned students into sheep. It's fine and dandy for science & engineering programs to produce tons of logical thinkers, but it's terrible in the long run since ingenuity is not based around logic really anyway and ingenuity is the #1 prime product of American industry.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:05 am**

I really do understand why people, benevolently, want everyone, even poor people, to have access to a good education ( I don't think state run is the best way to do it, but whatever. I want everyone to get a good education too btw.), but I get even more leary when things go from offered for free to everyone to compulsory. Good news! we invented a new swine flu vaccineand we're giving it away free! by the way you must take it or you go to jail. etc

Gookstorm wrote:turned students into sheep.

what i meant by what could possibly go wrong.

Gookstorm wrote:Most "progressive" policies in American (hell, it's not uniquely American, let's face it) history have been perverted into something precisely opposite of its intent while most of the policies enacted by those anti-regulation, pro-corporate variety have been pretty faithful to their original intent, failed miserably, and we keep going back to it.

Yeah I know. Everything backfires (in favor of the rich/political class) or was malevolent to being with, but we keep trying the same things over and over. Maybe if we just vote harder.

Here's my summary of this thread, skewed to benefit me. I said maybe it's not such a good idea to put the people dicking you over in charge of your education. Johnlapse says there's no other way poor people would learn. I say, well school attendance and literacy had been steadily going up since before public school (chop out 10 pages of nitpicking) and that people value education enough to get it anyway they can, and he agrees and says the same things, but still somehow there was some kind of education emergency that only The State could solve, the only thing that changes literacy rates is whether or not there are public schools. I'm not surprised said literacy and attendance continued to go up after Horace Mann, but now you have the added benefit of learning how to be a good protestant instead of catholic, how to be a sheep, you have to school or you're breaking the law, but you have to go to this seperate but equal school, and, this just in, Thomas Jefferson wasn't that important to the Enlightenment:

9:27 - The board is taking up remaining amendments on the high school world history course.

9:30 - Board member Cynthia Dunbar wants to change a standard having students study the impact of Enlightenment ideas on political revolutions from 1750 to the present. She wants to drop the reference to Enlightenment ideas (replacing with "the writings of") and to Thomas Jefferson. She adds Thomas Aquinas and others. Jefferson's ideas, she argues, were based on other political philosophers listed in the standards. We don't buy her argument at all. Board member Bob Craig of Lubbock points out that the curriculum writers clearly wanted to students to study Enlightenment ideas and Jefferson. Could Dunbar's problem be that Jefferson was a Deist? The board approves the amendment, taking Thomas Jefferson OUT of the world history standards.

9:40 - We're just picking ourselves up off the floor. The board's far-right faction has spent months now proclaiming the importance of emphasizing America's exceptionalism in social studies classrooms. But today they voted to remove one of the greatest of America's Founders, Thomas Jefferson, from a standard about the influence of great political philosophers on political revolutions from 1750 to today.

9:45 - Here's the amendment Dunbar changed: "explain the impact of Enlightenment ideas from John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire, Charles de Montesquieu, Jean Jacques Rousseau, and Thomas Jefferson on political revolutions from 1750 to the present." Here's Dunbar's replacement standard, which passed: "explain the impact of the writings of John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire, Charles de Montesquieu, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and Sir William Blackstone." Not only does Dunbar's amendment completely change the thrust of the standard. It also appalling drops one of the most influential political philosophers in American history -- Thomas Jefferson.

9:51 - Dunbar's amendment striking Jefferson passed with the votes of the board's far-right members and board member Geraldine "Tincy" Miller of Dallas.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:22 am**

Thomas Jefferson: plagiarist of many, nigger lover, Founding Father, founder of an institute of education, deist? Totally deserved to be removed.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:03 am**

One more reason I'd be happy to see them secede from the Union. Go ahead, Rick Perry, make my day.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:10 am**

Pisscubes wrote:
Pip wrote:One more reason I'd be happy to see them secede from the Union. Go ahead, Rick Perry, make my day.
Fuck it, let's do it. Let them succeed. We'll order a trade embargo cause we don't agree with their politics (See: Cuba) then wait to see how quickly their ideas go at least slightly more liberal as they find themselves rapidly becoming a third world nation.

That's exactly why I'm in. They wouldn't have near the trading power without us and the'd be TOTALLY fucked. Secede all day, assholes.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:14 am**

Pisscubes wrote:
Pip wrote:One more reason I'd be happy to see them secede from the Union. Go ahead, Rick Perry, make my day.
Fuck it, let's do it. Let them succeed. We'll order a trade embargo cause we don't agree with their politics (See: Cuba) then wait to see how quickly their ideas go at least slightly more liberal as they find themselves rapidly becoming a third world nation.

cool then we can have terrorists way closer. we won't have to send our troups all the way to the middle east.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:18 am**

I like this idea. If Sarah Palin goes there and becomes the ruler of the Republic of Texas I'm packing a some supplies and a gun in my car and I will beat her ass beyond texasdome.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:13 pm**

Pisscubes wrote:
Glass Asshole wrote:I like this idea. If Sarah Palin goes there and becomes the ruler of the Republic of Texas I'm packing a some supplies and a gun in my car and I will beat her ass beyond texasdome.
I might actually enlist in the army if I could go serve in the foreign war against Texas.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:19 pm**

Have you been to Texas?

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:27 pm**

After Bored left Texas that leaves my older brother as the only resident I know....Nuke the fucking place ASAP.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:29 pm**

I'll probably be moving back soon, to tell you the truth. This time I'm gonna go be a hermit in the mountains.

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:35 pm**

Pisscubes wrote: You have to understand I'm being (mostly) facetious here. I'm sure Texas gets more bad press than it deserves. Still though, articles like the one in this thread doesn't help the stereotype, right?

I don't really care too much about stereotypes...if you go down to Texas and stay a while you'll see it's all a bunch of bullshit. But even if it wasn't, I'm very comfortable around small town Texas people...consequence of living there for about 28 years...it's a dream of mine to live out in the West, have a ranch, etc. I would be really happy out there...

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:08 pm**

neckbeard wrote: skewed to benefit me.

I know that's the only qualifier of top notch thinkin' in your book. I questioned the idea that literacy was whatever higher percentage you said it was prior to public schools (libertarian guy quote) and lower afterwords (Kennedy Report). You're response to this was provide examples proving me right for some reason.

Also, you didn't point out how the private market provided schooling in a superior way to public schooling. Other than pointing out that 9 out of 10 property owning rich white males in wealthy areas were tremendously satisfied with the arrangement.

Bored - that is just what leaves me dissatisfied about these impassioned defenses of the south, if you and other defend the southers are right, the vast majority of the people are super-cool, decent and down to earth people, not stereotypical moronic, racist, religious fanatics, then why is practically all of your political representation of the latter type. Is the former group too lazy to vote, or as I suspect do they all repatriate to the blue states. I am not bemoaning people who are conservative here, or pro-life, or have a libertarian streak, I'm talking these nuts on the boards of ed, the Rick Perrys or the world, the confederate flag wavers.

Either these people are the majority or they intimidate everyone else from the polls with their eerie synchronous banjo playing?

Splain the lure....

Posted: **Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:18 pm**

Bored - that is just what leaves me dissatisfied about these impassioned defenses of the south, if you and other defend the southers are right, the vast majority of the people are super-cool, decent and down to earth people, not stereotypical moronic, racist, religious fanatics, then why is practically all of your political representation of the latter type. Is the former group too lazy to vote, or as I suspect do they all repatriate to the blue states. I am not bemoaning people who are conservative here, or pro-life, or have a libertarian streak, I'm talking these nuts on the boards of ed, the Rick Perrys or the world, the confederate flag wavers.

That's a really good question. Honestly, I don't know. In a perfect world representative democracy actually WOULD be representative of its region's constituents. I think...like in a lot of places in the South people vote Republican because they've been taught to be wary of "Big Government", but in terms of what they're actually electing - do they know? But also keep in mind that the friends I've had in my life and the people I've been around weren't fundamentalist yahoos...just because of my subconscious selection process. If there ARE lots of people like that I never came near to meeting them. There are also, in Texas, lots of huge interests in land, oil, real estate, etc. that go with their Republican buddies...I don't know if that reflects the choices of the small people at all...

Edit: I should also add that I am usually so utterly apolitical that I don't even notice these things...

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:02 am**

I looked something up for you:
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/hi ... 0-92.shtml

2006 - November (Gubernatorial)
Percent of Turnout to Voting Age Population 26.44

2007 - Special, November (Constitutional)
Percent of Turnout to Voting Age Population
6.31

A little higher for the federal stuff.
2008 - November (Presidential)
Percent of Turnout to VAP 45.55

Let's say the least some canditate or proposition usually wins by is 50% of the vote, and the most 100%. So, for the state elections, between ~3% and 26.44%[ii] of the population is bossing around the rest of the population.

6.31 x 0.5
[ii]26.44 x 1.00

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:28 am**

fuck, one of the only things that makes me embarassed about being from Texas.

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:57 am**

neckbeard wrote:I looked something up for you:
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/hi ... 0-92.shtml

2006 - November (Gubernatorial)
Percent of Turnout to Voting Age Population 26.44

2007 - Special, November (Constitutional)
Percent of Turnout to Voting Age Population
6.31

A little higher for the federal stuff.
2008 - November (Presidential)
Percent of Turnout to VAP 45.55

Let's say the least some canditate or proposition usually wins by is 50% of the vote, and the most 100%. So, for the state elections, between ~3% and 26.44%[ii] of the population is bossing around the rest of the population.

6.31 x 0.5
[ii]26.44 x 1.00

Yeah, this info depresses the shit out of me, I always feel like the biggest defender of government here, and I am in terms of democracy, rule of law, strong institutions in the public trust etc... don't confuse that with wholehearted adoration of the current government, thought as your stats point out above half the problem is that the governed are too lazy to show up and those who do are the ones with a political axe to grind -(like me)

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:35 am**

ohhh.... look at all the socialist pissed off that their revision of history is not included.

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:43 am**

ThE GodDamN BattletweeteR wrote:ohhh.... look at all the socialist pissed off that their revision of history is not included.

I'm more taken back by all your heavy-hitting and well thought out contributions to this thread. Good job defending Texas, man. What a laughable fucking faggot you are...

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:13 am**

Tweeter, if you aren't just trolling, and actually think lying about McCarthy is the same thing as teaching about the labor movement, I advise you to get snipped asap. Better tie Mia's tubes before they can be problematic, too.

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:57 pm**

soiled depends wrote:
ThE GodDamN BattletweeteR wrote:ohhh.... look at all the socialist pissed off that their revision of history is not included.

I'm more taken back by all your heavy-hitting and well thought out contributions to this thread. Good job defending Texas, man. What a laughable fucking faggot you are...

your too fat to be "taken back."

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:59 pm**

father of lies wrote:Tweeter, if you aren't just trolling, and actually think lying about McCarthy is the same thing as teaching about the labor movement, I advise you to get snipped asap. Better tie Mia's tubes before they can be problematic, too.

mccarthy is right. there are commies infiltrating the government.

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:22 pm**

Glass Asshole wrote:I like this idea. If Sarah Palin goes there and becomes the ruler of the Republic of Texas I'm packing a some supplies and a gun in my car and I will beat her ass beyond texasdome.

I'm blowing the lid off if Palin gets elected---after all she was born in SPAIN>

Posted: **Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:31 pm**

ThE GodDamN BattletweeteR wrote:
father of lies wrote:Tweeter, if you aren't just trolling, and actually think lying about McCarthy is the same thing as teaching about the labor movement, I advise you to get snipped asap. Better tie Mia's tubes before they can be problematic, too.
mccarthy is right. there are commies infiltrating the government.

Good. Somebody needs to fix the roads.

Generic Business Oriented Website

Congrats Texas board of education...

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