Re: European Mens, what's the migrant crisis look like from where you are?
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:37 pm
Touché, sir. Touché.The Torsion wrote:His last youtube video won't have his head in it either.
Move along Paulo's boss. Nothing to see here.
http://www.reeelapse.com/
Touché, sir. Touché.The Torsion wrote:His last youtube video won't have his head in it either.
I just want to highlight this quote because YOU are the one that's mischaracterizing my position on this matter as belonging to the latter camp when I never stated that, but obviously since I listen to NSBM that definitely makes me a Nazi and therefore want to genocide anyone who isn't white, nevermind the fact that I am myself not white - okay. Also, it implies that you admit this will pose future problems for Europe, correct? Yet your attitude seems to be that everything about is just hunky-dory old hat and adding a few million foreigners to places that are already fairly densely populated is no big deal.The biggest problem with the whole conversation, sadly, is still that somehow this point of view isn't allowed - everyone either insists immigration is 100% problem free and the more, the merrier, or they're screaming about islamization and predicting the end of Western culture within the next five years. It's fucking retarded.
spacehamster wrote:Touché, sir. Touché.The Torsion wrote:His last youtube video won't have his head in it either.
Nomb is German, and we don't seem to fundamentally disagree. He's more sceptical than me, and I don't think complete assimilation is really desirable anyway, but by an large, we see things very similarly.antinatalism wrote:In all of your arguments, you keep referring to Switzerland as if it is representative of all of Europe, when it is quite obviously not. What do your British, Swedish, Italian, French and German comrades have to say about all this?
Not really. What I'm saying is that no, immigration isn't something that just sorts itself out if we can all try really hard to be nice and not be racist, as some leftists would have you believe. But there have been many large waves of immigration into Europe over the course of its history, and we've survived all of them just fine. We handled some of them better than others, and that proves they need to be handled, but it's not an issue that can't be solved if everyone stops screaming about "islamization" and "existential threats".Also, it implies that you admit this will pose future problems for Europe, correct?
There are hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Europe who do not share its culture, ethnicity or values.
They are going to those countries, in droves. Other countries much closer to Syria, as we've already discussed, are just straight up refusing to take them in and sending them towards Europe. Many of them travel by foot or in unventilated vans and under other unimaginable conditions and don't arrive alive. Do you really think they're all just risking death because they want an iPhone?there are lots of places these "refugees" could go that, coincidentally, aren't the richest countries with the highest living standards and offer the most luxurious benefits.
There's no such thing as zero chance of a threat. That's a crazy idea, and any policy based on it will inevitably lead to totalitarianism.Wouldn't you rather have a ZERO chance of allowing these existential threats to exist?
Actually Switzerland has federal referenda on immigration policies pretty frequently. The last one rejected the idea of a hard cap on immigration by a landslide. The one not long before that turned out differently. We're always kind of on the fence about the topic.Why is there no referendum for situations like these? Obviously you are ok with letting just anyone into your backyard for whatever reason, but you can't respect the desires of your neighbors who don't? What kind of a democracy is that?
I could think of a lot of reasons why we have that obligation like the fact that we're by far the most privileged continent in the world and it's mostly because we've exploited the rest of the planet for about 1000 years (starting right around the crusades), or the fact that you can trace almost every major, long-lasting problem in the world back to the fact that the Europeans fucked everyone in the ass during colonial times, or just the minor trifle of human rights, but I'm guessing you'll shoot all of those down because you're just going to insist that this imaginary "existential threat" exists.what is the obligation of Europeans to accept these people into their countries at all? That is really what I want to know. You can ignore everything else if you want as long as you address this point.
We are very much aware of this. In a short term this may very well present us some problems, like having parallel societies or ghettos. In the long run however, a process of islamization (=turning Germans into Muslims ) doesn't seem to take place, in fact (like I said a page before) 3rd generation Turks speak better German than Turkish, and are very much German. They will even admit it themselves once they've visited the homeland of their parents or grandparents for the first time.antinatalism wrote:There are hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Europe who do not share its culture, ethnicity or values.
antinatalism wrote:Of those migrants, only a small percentage of these people are actually fleeing a warzone.
antinatalism wrote:Nevermind the fact that the first priority of anyone fleeing a warzone is to get to safety and there are lots of places these "refugees" could go that, coincidentally, aren't the richest countries with the highest living standards and offer the most luxurious benefits.
antinatalism wrote:Why are Europeans obligated to help these people when there is the real possibilty - no matter how minimal you think it is - that they pose an existential threat to them?
Yes, but I also happen to believe this is simply impossible.antinatalism wrote:Wouldn't you rather have a ZERO chance of allowing these existential threats to exist?
In Germany, our constitution doesn't really provide for referendums, and while some parties would like to change this for certain issues like immigration of the construction of train stations, referendums wouldn't be as easy to carry out as in Switzerland, for the simple reason that Germany has about ten times more people in it.antinatalism wrote:Why is there no referendum for situations like these? Obviously you are ok with letting just anyone into your backyard for whatever reason, but you can't respect the desires of your neighbors who don't? What kind of a democracy is that?
,antinatalism wrote:More importantly, assuming these people pose ZERO risk of being bloodthirsty jihadists
See above, you basically already asked this question.antinatalism wrote:what is the obligation of Europeans to accept these people into their countries at all?
Personally, I'm not sure wether "importing people" is the best solution, but it certainly is the easiest, speaking in political terms. There are incentives to get women to have more children, or to make it easier for women who go to work/are trying to have a career to have/support children. This is a totally differnet issue though, which of course plays into the larger problem, but man, I'd be sitting here al night if we started discussing these finer details...antinatalism wrote:Many of these countries are experiencing declining fertility rates. So the best solution is to import people who don't speak the language, share the culture, or even possess the skills of the population they are replacing? How do you expect that to play out? Especially in light of the fact that there is literally an inexhaustible supply of similar people who will see this and follow suite?
Aren't they on the pinko commie point system over there by now? How much would this cost?riley-o wrote:I bet that devious foreigner just wrote the script and hired a fiverr artist to do the voiceover for him
O rly? And how many of those occurred peacefully, outside of the Roman empire?But there have been many large waves of immigration into Europe over the course of its history, and we've survived all of them just fine.
Again, you're putting words in my mouth. American public education may be shit, but I at least know Europe does not possess a single unified culture. But then you go on to say this:I don't know what that means, and evidently neither do you. Europe does not have a single culture, ethnicity or value system. We've only stopped going to war against one another very recently in our history. The idea of a unified European culture is insane. There is no such thing. Not even close. This is why so many conservatives are extremely sceptical of the EU as a political construct - they're convinced it won't work because our cultures are too different.There are hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Europe who do not share its culture, ethnicity or values.
You do realize that these are not values that most African or Arab countries share right?I actually do think, and so does every other sane human being, that there are core values that are non-negotiable and that our ancestors had to fight tooth and nail for against oppressive monarchies and the churches. Equal rights for everyone, democracy, freedom of speech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham ... on_scandalAnd if people are going to live here, they have to respect those values. But these millions of Muslim immigrants that don't believe in any of that and want to introduce Sharia law in Europe are an imaginary boogeyman. These people are tiny in number, and they pose no threat. Like Nomb and I already said, the vast majority of the second generation always sees the benefits of our way of life and wants in on it, women's equality and all. What reason do we have to deny them that?
If it's true that these people simply want to live under democracy, then why aren't their countries like yours? Why don't they fight for it in their own lands instead of coming to yours? I don't believe they do, but they definitely want the perks of it.Other countries much closer to Syria, as we've already discussed, are just straight up refusing to take them in and sending them towards Europe. Many of them travel by foot or in unventilated vans and under other unimaginable conditions and don't arrive alive. Do you really think they're all just risking death because they want an iPhone?
Uh, no. Let me clarify: You seal off the borders and stop people from coming in. It doesn't mean that people already within those borders will stop committing crimes, but you will prevent the people outside of those borders from coming in and committing more crimes.There's no such thing as zero chance of a threat. That's a crazy idea, and any policy based on it will inevitably lead to totalitarianism.
Everybody likes to talk about the evils of slavery and colonialism, while ignoring the places in the world where these things have ended (hint: not Africa or the Middle East). Europeans are soooo evil, but somehow everyone wants to live in their countries? And where does this debt to the brown masses of the world end? Will it be satisfied once Europe finally ceases to exist? Until it is an identity-less blend of every race, finally united under the benevolent banner of globalism? I know you'll scoff at the idea, but if things keep up as they are, it will happen. Maybe not in our lifetime, but logically speaking, it has to happen.I could think of a lot of reasons why we have that obligation like the fact that we're by far the most privileged continent in the world and it's mostly because we've exploited the rest of the planet for about 1000 years (starting right around the crusades), or the fact that you can trace almost every major, long-lasting problem in the world back to the fact that the Europeans fucked everyone in the ass during colonial times, or just the minor trifle of human rights, but I'm guessing you'll shoot all of those down because you're just going to insist that this imaginary "existential threat" exists.
he sorta sounded like you, actually... just a less deep voiceriley-o wrote:I bet that devious foreigner just wrote the script and hired a fiverr artist to do the voiceover for him
antinatalism wrote:
This idea of Europeans being the world's savior because in the past they were the world's oppressors is honestly retarded. Every single civilization engages in abhorrent behavior, yet Europeans are unique in that they're the only ones eternally condemned to bear the responsibility for it. You don't find that a little odd?
This would all make a lot more sense to you if you'd stop conflating countries with the people who live in them. Especially countries that aren't nation states, but multi-ethnic former colonies whose borders only exist because a European drew them there a few hundred years ago.antinatalism wrote: You do realize that these are not values that most African or Arab countries share right?
Are you saying they don't? Are you saying white people don't commit crimes? Have you heard of Anders Breivik? I'm guessing he's one of your heroes, but he doesn't really help your argument here. Do you realize how often people are assaulted by your neo-nazi brothers in spirit on this continent?"people of all ethnicities do bad things" right?
I don't recognize this place you're talking about. You need to get your information about Europe from somewhere else than Graveland lyrics and Stormfront.So if people who have lived in close proximity for thousands of years, who have more in common with each other than not - e.g. the aforementioned values of equal rights, democracy and freedom of speech - what makes you think importing people from thousands of miles away with even less in common will fare better?
Let me clarify: You seal off the borders and stop people from coming in. It doesn't mean that people already within those borders will stop committing crimes, but you will prevent the people outside of those borders from coming in and committing more crimes.
I started early, and I've been around a lot of Americans. And I've just always been good at picking up accents if I hear them enough. The German accent I did in the video is also not my native accent, I just thought it would be funnier that way.joefromthegarage wrote: Why don't you have any sort of Swiss accent? Did you deliberately study pronunciation?
It just wasn't ever an issue, really. They didn't specifically make us speak with British accents in school, and at the university I went to, a lot of the professors were American anyway. Besides, correct grammar and appropriate academic style are more important than an accent.And if I may ask, why didn't you study the Queen's English like every British teacher in Europe desperately wants to keep relevant? Do other people in Switzerland talk like you?
Damn obvious it's not, ya Swiss fuck Gotta say, though: for a dude who, for some inexplicable reason (since I'm sure you're a nice guy to be around in everyday life), sometimes enjoys displaying a breath-takingly self-righteous/ asshole-ish online persona I gotta say I admired the way you handled the whole discussion. I agree that the discussion has run its course; nothing you might say will convince the usual suspects that what's happening now is not an Islamic invasion threatening to destroy our holy Christian Western civilization. As one of the board's resident Germans, I'd just like to chime in and say that Spacehamster's attitude towards immigration is mainstream in Germany, but of course there's lots of debate on the subject, and quite a few people would prefer it if there weren't any annoying foreigners in that fine country of ours, but fortunately only very few (but still too many) Germans do abhorrent shit like setting fire to refugee buildings. The overall attitude here is that we should help other, less fortunate people who come here in search of a better life for their family and children.spacehamster wrote:The German accent I did in the video is also not my native accent, I just thought it would be funnier that way.
No care.antinatalism wrote:In all of your arguments, you keep referring to Switzerland as if it is representative of all of Europe, when it is quite obviously not. What do your British, Swedish, Italian, French and German comrades have to say about all this?