Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:30 pm
by THE KILL
It's happened to James Cameron, Takeshi Kitano, Ridley Scott, and Peter Jackson, among else, to varying degrees, all of whom made several incredible, magical films where everything just clicked, and then managed no more than decent (Kitano's Outrage trilogy) or even downright shitty (everything from Titanic onwards eg). Question is why - some people have artistic sensibilities, a keen, creative mind, great ideas, a feel for composition, rhythm, a good plot etc, everything that makes a film great; and then, it's suddenly gone? How come?
Same goes for once brilliant bands, obviously... why, after Prowler in the Yard, did Pig Destroyer make almost exclusively painfully generic, boring music?
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:09 pm
by The Bill
Age. Directing a major film is goddam exhausting, and aggravating. Dealing with studios & producers is a nightmare. Fighting them to get your way and navigating company politics is a full time job by itself. A prime example is how Sam Rami’s Spider-Man 3 took it in the ass because he just couldn’t fight off Sony’s usual bad idea’s being forced into his films anymore. I can’t even imagine what competent directors at Disney have to deal with nowadays. With age, you lose your inner fire and realize a paycheck is more important than “your view”. Orsen Wells was in Transformers the Movie ‘86.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Same goes for once brilliant bands, obviously... why, after Prowler in the Yard, did Pig Destroyer make almost exclusively painfully generic, boring music?
I remember Scott Hull saying something like “I fully admit we’re in our Napalm Death Diatribes era of the band” in reference to their sound changing. The main problem is JR Hayes voice being totally blown out. Firing Brian Harvey also didn’t help.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:00 pm
by Eight Bit Alien
It's true of almost all popular media. Less so of the major classical artforms which is interesting.
I think the specific stuff you're looking at exists at an intersection between technology and style. Guys like those seem to hit a major test when filmmaking conventions shift, and they're forced to adapt to current trends or standards. Sam Raimi for example was competent enough to make both Evil Dead and Spiderman - the first with bubblegum and moldy 16mm, the latter with 35mm and digital. George Romero by contrast really never found his footing once he left the ghetto of community theater and DIY fundraising.
That "new Hollywood" era of guys were also all "the fresh new voice" who had bold new ideas about how to wiggle the camera, and how to communicate with the young boomer audience. By the time you're 45 years old and a part of the establishment thanks to your success, you could wind up like George Lucas... not seeming so precocious by the time Phantom Menace came out, competing with The Matrix.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:01 pm
by Eight Bit Alien
And I think Cameron absolutely still has the juice, but he's trapped on Pandora. If he made a non-Avatar movie it could still be absolutely electric... at least thats what i tell myself.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:23 pm
by hipster holocaust
Even Tarantino? Once Upon A Time In Hollywood isn’t even close to his best but it’s pretty fuckin clever for a nowadays popcorn blockbuster
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:23 pm
by Eight Bit Alien
Tarantino has gotten better imho. Fuckin genius and I'm not ascared to say it.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:21 pm
by The Bill
Eight Bit Alien wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:23 pm
Tarantino has gotten better imho. Fuckin genius and I'm not ascared to say it.
I feel like Tarantino’s films follow a pattern of 60’s into 70’s “cool” films. I wonder if he’ll branch off into 80’s slasher and sci-fi films ever.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:27 pm
by Eight Bit Alien
He had a fulci-inspired zombie movie and a star trek which never made it into production afaik. This next one about a movie critic is allegedly his last one before he retires.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:35 pm
by The Bill
Eight Bit Alien wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:27 pm
He had a fulci-inspired zombie movie and a star trek which never made it into production afaik. This next one about a movie critic is allegedly his last one before he retires.
Oh.
This reminds me of the horror movie House, where these fans are standing in line for a horror writer’s autograph and he informs one of them his next book is a diary about Vietnam, instead of more horror.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:05 pm
by Necrometer
sophomore slump
second album syndrome
you get comfortable… you become soft
tim burton is the most tragic IMO
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:06 pm
by Necrometer
there’s a cut of prometheus that’s better than the best cut of blade runner
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:39 am
by spacehamster
Everyone runs out of ideas eventually, and the less technically proficient they are, the faster it usually happens. Almost all Metal bands make one good album and then the magic's gone - because it actually is magic and nobody really knows why it worked the first time. Some make it three albums. Almost nobody makes it past five.
With movie directors it's the same problem. Scorsese in his prime had a routine and a style, but eventually it got stale, and now The Wolf of Wall Street is basically the cartoon version of Goodfellas. Like a recent Immolation album. Still better than most, but really, who are we kidding.
With extremely successful movie directors like Jackson or Cameron, I think there's also an element of drinking their own Kool-Aid, and they become complacent. The only creative individual in any genre or medium that I can think of off the top of my head who kept getting better until his dying day was George Carlin, and everyone knew that he worked harder than everyone else until the end. That's how he did it - I actually don't think he was some special kind of genius, he just practiced and honed his craft for decades and decades, and that's how he got that good at it.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:17 am
by Eight Bit Alien
Carlin also never got comfortable - he wasn't happy, right up until the end. Food for thought.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:42 am
by Hunter
The Bill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:09 pm
Age. Directing a major film is goddam exhausting, and aggravating. Dealing with studios & producers is a nightmare. Fighting them to get your way and navigating company politics is a full time job by itself. A prime example is how Sam Rami’s Spider-Man 3 took it in the ass because he just couldn’t fight off Sony’s usual bad idea’s being forced into his films anymore. I can’t even imagine what competent directors at Disney have to deal with nowadays. With age, you lose your inner fire and realize a paycheck is more important than “your view”. Orsen Wells was in Transformers the Movie ‘86.
This is the most accurate answer, IMO. It takes an insane amount of energy to translate your vision to the big screen. You see how many people are involved in the credits when making movies... it's fucking insane. The older you get, the harder it is to do everything by yourself. You start relying more and more on others to fight the battles and get the insurmountable amount of work done.
Different technology for making flicks is less a factor than the entire industry changing dramatically over the past 20 years with the advent of streaming. Comedies, dramas, rom-coms, whatever... anything that isn't an action blockbuster or Disney flick doesn't see much (if any) time in theaters. So much money is involved for these massive flicks that they are not about to take any chances, or let any director have their way. It's harder than ever to find funding to make an independent film.
Running out of ideas doesn't seem like a realistic scenario to me... Directors have concepts, projects and scripts that they shelve for decades. When someone creative does something new, it's pegged as "they're out of ideas" when 90% of the time, that's the opposite of what happened - they had different ideas, or were inspired by something outside of what they are expected to do. Consistency is what many people value in their art, but it's also what will ruin the creativity of an artist.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:41 am
by featherboa
cormac
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:17 am
by cxwx
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:47 pm
by THE KILL
cxwx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:14 pm
The main problem is JR Hayes voice being totally blown out. Firing Brian Harvey also didn’t help.
They fucking fired Harvey?! Unless he was an impossible to work with diva, that was amazingly stupid.
Eight Bit Alien wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:00 pm By the time you're 45 years old and a part of the establishment thanks to your success, you could wind up like George Lucas... not seeming so precocious by the time Phantom Menace came out, competing with The Matrix.
Not sure if George Lucas is a good example for what you're describing: episodes 4-6 were the absolute pinnacle of popcorn cinema, perfect pulp scifi films. Episodes 1-3 were popcorn trash of the lowest order with shitty characters, shitty sfx, a dumb plot, lousy rhythm, embarassing action scenes and so on. It's not that he was perceived as old fashioned and wasn't hip to how films were supposed to look in the early 2000s, it's just that he was totally incapable of making a good film.
Eight Bit Alien wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:01 pm
And I think Cameron absolutely still has the juice, but he's trapped on Pandora. If he made a non-Avatar movie it could still be absolutely electric... at least thats what i tell myself.
You just know you're lying to yourself
hipster holocaust wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:23 pm
Even Tarantino? Once Upon A Time In Hollywood isn’t even close to his best but it’s pretty fuckin clever for a nowadays popcorn blockbuster
I admit it's a matter of taste whether you enjoy his films, but I'd argue he's always been a great film maker. None of his films weren't at least highly enjoyable to me. I hope he won't stop after his tenth film... I'd have killed to see a Tarantino directed Star Trek or zombie film, fuck
Necrometer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:05 pm
tim burton is the most tragic IMO
Never understood people's boner for the guy. Beetlejuice was a nice film, but hardly a timeless masterpiece, and Burton's visual style has been formulaic and clichéed for a long time.
Necrometer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:06 pm
there’s a cut of prometheus that’s better than the best cut of blade runner
Coming from an (admittedly very attractive) guy who thinks Avatar is anything but clichéed trash, I highly doubt it...
Sorry for the ad hominem
spacehamster wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:39 am
The only creative individual in any genre or medium that I can think of off the top of my head who kept getting better until his dying day was George Carlin, and everyone knew that he worked harder than everyone else until the end. That's how he did it - I actually don't think he was some special kind of genius, he just practiced and honed his craft for decades and decades, and that's how he got that good at it.
There's Shinya Tsukamoto, another director who hasn't made a single bad film, almost all of his films are fucking bangers from start to finish. And, uh, I hardly dare to say it, The Kill (the blastgrind band from Australia, I'm just a dumb fan/ wish I had a tenth of the talent these guys had). I'm really looking forward to all the films that Ari Aster is yet to make, Hereditary and Midsommar were both amazing. Haven't yet seen Beau is Afraid, but I'm expecting a lot. Joaquin Phoenix is amazing in everything he's in.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Another good example, everything they recorded after the Nasum/ Skitsystem 7" was largely forgettable stuff. They even lost their brutal thick sound, Helvete sounds like shit.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:10 pm
by The Bill
The metal band vs film director analogy is stupid. Maybe metal band and actors works. And director to conductor works well.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:35 pm
by Eight Bit Alien
Metal is conductive, film isn't. Enough.
And cool it with the ableism, guys.
Re: Why do you think many directors seem to lose their special knack when they get older?
cxwx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:14 pm
The main problem is JR Hayes voice being totally blown out. Firing Brian Harvey also didn’t help.
They fucking fired Harvey?! Unless he was an impossible to work with diva, that was amazingly stupid.
He’s been out of the band since 2011. I seem to remember them not exactly parting on good terms.
Oh I know he hasn't been playing with them for a while, I just thought he quit the band for whatever reason... probably because they became boring as hell
