James Cameron's AVATAR 2 - now playing in cinema theaters

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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-micha ... 00912.html
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The Meaning of Avatar: Everything is God

"If you're an author or Ph.D. candidate who had the foresight to propose a book on the philosophy of "Avatar" before the film was even released in theaters, the past week (and the blogosphere) has been very, very good to you." - Dave Itzkoff, NY Times, Dec. 22, 2009
Well, good news for me! I'm an author and a Ph.D. candidate whose book on the philosophy of Avatar, a book called "Everything is God," was published by Shambhala two months ago. I wrote the book not because I got a shooting copy of the script last year, but because, contrary to the cries of some critics, the philosophy of the movie has actually been around, in East and West, for thousands of years.
Roughly speaking, Avatar's Na'Vi subscribe to a combination of pantheism and theism, a view scholars today call "panentheism." As scholar of religion Gershom Scholem observed, panentheism is usually rooted less in faith, as the New York Times's Ross Douthat said, than in experience. Like mystics here on Earth, the Na'Vi have an experience of unity of consciousness with other beings, all of which (themselves included) are really just manifestations of one Being, which they call Ai'wa. Unlike Earth-bound mystics, the Na'Vi have a convenient plug, attached to their bodies, which physically unites them to other beings (such as steeds, winged or otherwise) and to Aiwa Herself/Itself.
Of course, the experience is one thing, the interpretation another. No one can doubt that, for millennia, contemplatives in Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim traditions - among others - have had similar experiences, albeit without the plug-and-play part. These experiences are described in strikingly, though not exactly, similar ways (the "perennial philosophy" scholars postulated a century ago works as a generality, but not in the details). But of course, how we understand such experiences - tickles of neurons, mind-states, prophecy, Unity with the Source oF life - is another matter.
In the Na'Vi cosmology, what's really happening is the Ai'Wa in me is connecting with the Ai'Wa in you. This is echoed in their greeting, "I see you," a direct translation of the Sanskrit Namaste, which means the same thing. ("Avatar" is also from the Sanskrit, though the film plays on the word's two meanings of an image used in a role-playing game, and a deity appearing on Earth.) As the Na'Vi explain in the film, though, "I see you" doesn't mean ordinary seeing - it, like Namaste, really means "the God in me sees the God in you." I see Myself, in your eyes.
Douthat and others don't like this very much. They complain it's a lowering of the human ambition, from an aspirational skyward gaze to an earthbound one, and that the Earth/the One/Ai'Wa cannot provide the comfort, meaning, and guidance that a traditional God-idea can. But this is incorrect for at least three reasons.
First, the Na'Vi are panentheists, not pantheists. In a crucial moment in the film, our hero Jake Sully prays to Ai'Wa, and She appears to answer, in the form of swarms of birds, dinosaur-like creatures, and other forces of nature who work together to defeat the technologically-advanced human invaders. (The sequence is not unlike the Ents defeating Saruman in The Two Towers or the creatures of Narnia defeating the humans in Prince Caspian.) Strict pantheists like Spinoza would never pray to Being. Indeed, the Na'Vi princess Neytiri scolds Sully for doing so, and I myself clucked my tongue a bit when the Na'Vi started swaying and chanting; it kind of confuses the issue.
But panentheists do pray. They pray all the time. Ramakrishna, the 19th century Hindu sage who, through his disciple Vivekananda, is more responsible than any other individual for the popularization of nonduality - from obscure Vedantic texts to best-sellers by Eckhart Tolle and Deepak Chopra - was both a nondualist sage who believed that All is One, and a devotee of the "Divine Mother" who prayed to Her every day. The Baal Shem Tov and other early Hasidim believed that everything is God, but they also prayed to God as if separate from Him. Rumi and other Sufi poets experienced unity, but also loved yearning for the love of an often-distant Other.
Douthat is wrong that nonduality erases God. In fact, "God" becomes seen as one of many ways of understanding Being. Sometimes God is Christ on the cross, sometimes the Womb of the Earth. Sometimes God is Justice, other times Mercy. This is how sophisticated religionists have understood theology for at least a thousand years: "God" is a series of insufficient explanations of the Absolutely Unknowable, a collection of projections and dreams and who-knows-what-else which, neo-atheists notwithstanding, speak to the core of who we are as human beings.
To me, this is more comforting than old school theology, not less. It allows for multiple paths to the holy, radical ecumenicism and pluralism, and a bit less constriction around our favorite theological myths. God as Friend, Father, "motion and spirit that impels all things" - all of these become dances, tools of the inner life which are available when needed, and enriched, not lessened, by being increased in number.
Second, nonduality/panentheism is not less ethically aspirational than sky-god-worship; it's more so. Thousands of years ago, we may well have needed a Righteous Judge in the Sky as a myth to keep us in line. But now, not only is such a thing philosophically untenable ("Where was God in Auschwitz?"), it's actively counterproductive. The sky god tells us that we humans are masters of the Earth; thus, we, like the humans in Avatar treat Earth as a resource to be exploited. The sky god tells us that only this book is sacred; thus we attack those with another book.
Traditional monotheism has indeed contributed to the growth of civilization, but not it is contributing to its downfall. Yes, the way of the Na'Vi is idealized - Avatar is a Hollywood cartoon. But it, not old-school-theology, holds the ideological promise of a more sustainable future on our planet (as well as Pandora). In our post-industrial age, respect for the web of life is more ethically valuable -- and ecologically urgent -- than fear of Heaven.
Third and finally, let's take a reality check. Douthat and others suggest that all faiths are basically myths, and that we should pick and choose among them by their consequences. Forget what's actually true, if Old Testament God is better for ethics than New Ave Ai'Wa, let's stick with Him. Yet, news flash: Old Testament God probably doesn't exist.
Is Ai'Wa any different? Yes. Here's the thought experiment: right now, please raise your right index finger. Now, reflect for a moment and list out all the various motives you had for raising, or not raising, your finger: curiosity, skepticism, doubt, whatever. All of those factors, if you look closely, are conditioned by things outside of "you" - your genetics, your upbringing, what you ate for lunch, whatever. We may not be able to know all these conditions, but the fact is that your action was 100% determined by those conditions. "Free will" exists as a psychological reality, but not as an ontological one. Who really moved? The conditions moved.
The Na'Vi call "the conditions" by the name Ai'Wa. Hindus call it Brahman. Nondual Jews (Kabbalists, Hasidim, and otherwise) call it Ein Sof, the Infinite - the God beyond "God." Yes, God raised (or didn't raise) your index finger. "You" are a psychological phenomenon. It's not God that's a trick of the neurons in your brain - you are.
Unlike traditional theologies, Nondual "theologies," whether from the Na'Vi or the navi (the Hebrew word for "prophet"), actually describe reality. Read up on your popular neurology books, like Daniel Dennett's Consciousness Explained or Robert Kane's The Oxford Handbook of Free Will. They'll make the point scientifically, rather than anecdotally or experientially. There is no individual self - it's an illusion, a mirage. "You" exist, sure, but you exist just like a wave on the ocean: here one minute, gone the next, and never apart from the ocean itself. And as the nondual teacher Ram Dass says, you're not a wave, you're water.
In my own life, as in those of millions of contemplatives from around the world, I have found these ideas to have important practical consequences. Most of my neurosis and desires revolve around making my wave bigger or more comfortable than others - remembering that I'm water is an important counterbalance. My desire for "MORE!" is quieted when I settle back out of selfish desire and into a remembering of the nondual truth. And, just my opinion here, I suspect that if more people chilled out about the superiority of their religious or ideological system, we might fight less.
By my estimation, approximately 700,000 people will see Avatar for every 1 that reads Everything is God. Admittedly, it has better special effects. But let's not think that nonduality is something James Cameron, or Hollywood, made up. It's in the Zohar, the Upanishads, the writings of John of the Cross, Rumi, the Tao te Ching, the Heart Sutra, and many other texts written long before Lumiere's train arrived at La Ciotat. Of course, these millennia-old traditions do not fit cleanly into our postmodern world, and so contemporary people adapt them to their lived experience. But at its core, Avatar's philosophy is not new; it is ancient, profound, and liberating.
:what:
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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tl,dr.

But...yeah, seems like making mountains outta molehills. There's nothing particularly inventive about paleolithic-ish clans of mystics attempting to communicate with the earth. Plenty has been said about it already. The less, the better.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Movie was amazing.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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RIVERPICKLE wrote:Movie was amazing...visually
"
SPOILERSPOILER_SHOW
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Saw it in 3D last night...I felt like a wide-eyed kid the whole time. Obviously the visuals were awesome, but I didn't think I'd be so into a relationship between two CG characters. The motion capture was insane. And for 160 minutes it went really fast...I can't think of anything I'd want to cut. Sure, there were some dialogue/story issues, but this move is beautiful inside and out...I had to speed walk out of the theater because I was crying like an asshole. Must see again. 9.5/10

And both version of Jake Sully...oh man...
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR: 240 g clear/silver swirl run of 13

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17 pages and we've got our first :bean:
Molester Stallone wrote:Oh look, another thread about a movie you guys know is going to be shit and you'll bitch and complain about every little update, and then when you spend your $11 to go see it you'll come back and complain about the same shit you've complained about.
this actually didn't happen! a christmas miracle!
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR: 240 g clear/silver swirl run of 13

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Necrometer wrote:17 pages and we've got our first :bean:
Totally...I had a dream about hitting on a female Na'avi last night...for some reason she was my size and had a Eastern European accent. What the fuck. Point being this shit has completely invaded my brain... :tup:

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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR: 240 g clear/silver swirl run of 13

Post by Hypnagogia »

bundlesofvitals wrote:
Necrometer wrote:17 pages and we've got our first :bean:
Totally...I had a dream about hitting on a female Na'avi last night...for some reason she was my size and had a Eastern European accent. What the fuck. Point being this shit has completely invaded my brain... :tup:
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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hawt

Worthington is such an upgrade from sparkles mcgoblinface; this movie has clearly been very therapeutic for you!
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Necrometer wrote:Worthington is such an upgrade from sparkles mcgoblinface; this movie has clearly been very therapeutic for you
I'm laughing at work over this...and you're right. I feel like a new woman...
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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He has some weird combo of blockhead and babyface that is equally appealing to dudes and dudettes, I guess?

In other news... http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-phonetics/ [nerd alert]
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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cold radiance wrote:He's going to be in the new Clash of the Titans movie too, right? This guy came out of nowhere. Terminator?
He was in an aussie show called water rats i believe
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Hypnagogia wrote:
RIVERPICKLE wrote:Movie was amazing...visually
"
Was amazing otherwise too. Buncha babies.
Fuck off.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Cliche and poorly written. Like the Michelle Rodriguez character, why did she suddenly decide to not fire on the tree? Nothing was established that indicated she felt sympathy for the blue cat people, she just takes off and is not reported by the gunner for doing so? Then she's allowed to visit the detained scientists unescorted? And later she suicide missions it? The only reason she was in the movie was because the writing sucked and at some point they realised the scientists would need to escape from the military to keep avatarding so blamo stock pilot character created. There was no character development for anyone, you could have predicted the outcome of every character and their decisions from their first scene. Will heroic scientist die for the side of good? Will military character be a total one dimensional butthead with absolutely no fucking depth whatsoever? Cameron should have just stuck to having every little plant and fungus light up when a character walks on it and left the script to someone who can write one.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Now apply those criteria to UP and see how well you like it... or either Transformers movie. You're forcibly missing the point. Consistency? Not that anyone should judge anything but what's shown in theaters, but if it's any consolation, they finished at least 20 extra minutes of movie that was edited out, and an even earlier cut was near 4 hours. I don't think either of those movies would've been better overall, but they would have partially remedied some of the pointlessness of the characters. They had to cut it until the print would fit in the IMAX projectors, and I'm actually glad they scrapped the exposition and human-human-interaction stuff because it's absolutely not the point of the movie. I mean, your points about the MR character are sound but seriously who fucking cares? I don't hate District 9 just because the fuel also can transform people into aliens and if you spill half of the precious stuff they still somehow have enough to do the thing even though he'd ONLY JUST FINALLY BARELY GOTTEN ENOUGH.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Well Transformers is slick garbage. Cinematically it's closer to a big mac than to an actual film. I just happen to love its foul taste. Up's first fifteen minutes created an emtional centre to the thing that carried it successfully through its shift into action-adventure mode. Carl was an excellently drawn character. I'll certainly admit that the majority of the movie didn't have the sheer impact of the opening but as it managed to do whatever it was doing well, I was on board.

With Avatar, the disparity between the technology on display (certainly amazing to look at) and the sheer brutal banality of the script created a divide that eventually became too distracting for me. By the climax when stupid shit like "the forest is protecting itself!" starting happening I was just laughing at it. This wouldn't have been a problem if my expectations were say, in the range of a michael bay flick, which are insults unto films themselves, but I was actually expecting Avatar to be at least a little well rounded. I used the MR character as an example because I began tuning the story out and just started looking for problems/cameronisms (oh look someone is hanging off a missle like in true lies, etc). There was nothing witty or funny in the dialogue, no plot turn or device that I hadn't see in dozens of other movies. It was a two and a half hour long tech demo that could have an easy 45 minutes cut out of the runtime: training on horses, training on jumping, training on flying horses, dopey romance, lord lifting jesus.

If the point was simply the tech demo aspect of it well in that regard it was a success. As a movie in my opinion it's a failure though.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Comrade Slinky wrote:If the point was simply the tech demo aspect of it well in that regard it was a success. As a movie in my opinion it's a failure though.
This is fine, but your lack of consistency leads me to side with MANTIS in dubbing you Reeemond White. I thought the Avatar story/dialogue was lame but at least not INTRUSIVELY lame, like was the case with Revenge of the Fallen. But that was released by an idiot so of course it gets a pass! Just to crank my faggotry up to 11, could I ask if you saw it in 3D?

As an aside: Up's beginning was great but holy shit was the rest of that movie a waste. I suspect it was one of those pre-movie skits that they became convinced was so good it was worthy of stretching into a feature. The whole thing was based around silly voices. I'll never watch that movie again.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

Post by Comrade Slinky »

I did see it in 3D.

I'll try to expand on this inconsistency issue. When I rate a movie it's a largely subjective thing. An 8 for transformers is not the same 8 I gave The Ashpalt Jungle. It basically indicates how much I enjoyed a movie, were my expectations met/exceeded/whatever and this varies wildly from genre to genre. With Transformers, I felt Michael Bay delevered on the facist/racist/misogynistic military recruitment robot battling stupidity that I was anticipating. It's not a good film but having grown up watching every action/dopey ninja movie I can get my hands on, I still have a fondness for this kind of tripe but I certainly recognise it as such. My approach to a silent film, how I judge it and what I take from it is vastly different from something like the 80's horror genre. I use whatever knowledge I have of the genre to try to inform me as to its respective place within its field, and this feeds into my general enjoyment of the experience. I see how giving something like transformers a flat 8 without any detail can be seen as misleading.

Cameron was involved with the scripts for stuff like The Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and Strange Days (really underrated), even considering Titanic/lengthy inactivity I was blown away with how rote the how affair was. Unfortunately this was something I couldn't get over. Oh well.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Expansion comprehended and appreciated. It is just frustrating when the vibe you put out (to the uninformed) is that Avatar is half as good as Revenge of the Minstrelbots. All you say about subjectivity and "worth within genre" is legit. I totally readjusted my expectations for this movie after I saw the 15-min sneak thing...
Necrometer wrote:It looks WAY Disney, and I am thinking it'll work on a Lion King scale, but with more gauged elf-ears.
Necrometer wrote:I just watched the 15 min 3D sneak - everything makes a lot more sense now. They really mismarketed/mislabeled this movie and let the hype get out of control. It's very much a fantasy film FIRST. I don't know why they're calling it sci-fi all the time; this is huge elves taming dragons in a mystical land of wonder. I guess I sort of knew that the whole time, but had no idea the film would be so out there. It's not even worth arguing about if the effects are the best ever or not - the important thing is that the characters you're watching are very relatable due to their motion and high detail, so it's more compelling than any Pixar cartoon so far. But I really do believe the major portion of the movie will be a cartoon - and that's fine because it will probably be a simple story told in an engaging/beautiful way.
So that reset me for non-disappointment. And even before that, I knew that the working title was "project 880", code for "people from 8-80 will love it"... I knew he it was going to be a broadest-strokes affair. Going in hoping for anything remotely related to T2 or Aliens - of course you're going to be shocked & disappointed. Respect, etc.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Fine and dandy.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Taking my parents this week - can't wait to see it again.

I made an Avatard...it's kinda freaking me out...

http://www2.mcdonalds.fi/day/avatar/ava ... 32470969.3
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

Post by thürstön.3®®0® »

i nearly strangled radish's cousin over christmas when he said that the story was the best part.........
"It is Baby Bush's fault, like all of the country's problems currently are, and the poor black dude has to mop up after the irresponsible frat boy while the rich white assholes criticize him as usual." - the most naive motherfucker i've ever come in contact with that wasn't a female mennonite.
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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Just when I was enjoying the beauty of Avatar... :? keep it out!!
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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LOL at the Bored one!
bundlesofvitals wrote:Taking my parents this week - can't wait to see it again.

I made an Avatard...it's kinda freaking me out...

http://www2.mcdonalds.fi/day/avatar/ava ... 32470969.3
:what:

here's mine... could be hotter
http://www2.mcdonalds.fi/day/avatar/ava ... 32604909.3
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Re: James Cameron's AVATAR - you know... for kids!

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