The price of peace...

[neckbeard]

We really need to defend Spain and Portugal and a shitload of Eastern European countries from the Nazis.

Quote cos I buried you.

Now do a map of the next most powerful country's deployments.

[Necrometer]

america: fuck yeah

[neckbeard]

Hey Ross did you see the story about how much each soldier in afghanistan costs per year? 1 Million dollars each.
Or the one about the number of Al-Quaidas in Afghanistan? 100.

[neckbeard]

Because it makes my life harder stupid

[necrothrash]

...the apes, which [Sally Coxe, founder of Bonobo Conservation Initiative] described as “bisexual,” engaged in various kinds of sexual activity in order to defuse conflict and maintain a tranquil society. “Bonobos are into peace and love and harmony,” Coxe said, then joked, “They might even have been the first ape to discover marijuana.”

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007 ... act_parker

SPOILERSPOILER_SHOW

[Necrometer]

Hey Ross did you see the story about how much each soldier in afghanistan costs per year? 1 Million dollars each.
Or the one about the number of Al-Quaidas in Afghanistan? 100.

I hadn't heard these numbers, but they are in line with what my gut was gutting on. 100 Al-Qaeda is insanely low... I guess I wish there were more, in the name of justification?

I made an edgy facebook status update once that went precisely like this:

Consider this: the on-paper cost of 9/11 was about $100 billion, while the cost of the restulting wars in the Middle East is rapidly approaching $1,000 billion. Those wars would only be economically justified if they prevented TEN more terrorist attacks on the scale of 9/11. Sources: http://costofwar.com/ http://www.iags.org/costof911.html

[Degree Absolute]

Now do a map of the next most powerful country's deployments.

SPOILERSPOILER_SHOW

[doomeddisciple]

An extremely stupid but well-educated (re: foreign affairs) acquaintance of mine claims that in spite of the constant militarism I bitch about, the world is - overall - a less violent place than ever. He claims that there's more "peace" now than ever, and there are less deaths from violent conflict than ever.

I am poorly educated and posess quite average intelligence, but to me my instinct tells me that, in the western and English speaking world at least - That our cultures have been beset by so much corporatisation that the things that made us unique and different culturally are being eroded to the point where everywhere you go is kinda the same - McDonalds, KFC, Burger King and Subway in clusters everywhere.

We've all become more of a commodity and a sale point based on a region rather than a distinct culture.

I'm not about to get all faux punk rock angsty about it - It's just something that I feel is that the nature of warfare in modern times is more financial in nature - You don't send in the tanks and take territory, you send in the investment bankers and buy it, then mould it in your own image.

I need some weed and a lie down.

[Necrometer]

Why don't you just let it spiral to it's inevitable conclusion?

You know the sun is going to burn out as well? Should we worry about it? Start working on contingency plans?

Practical moral/ethical concerns aside, I think it's an interesting premise with regard to the human condition. Is world peace impossible, based on what man is? If the the closest thing we get is a lasting "peace" predicated via the occupation (and coincident kilocasualties) of a handful of non-christian non-democracies... what does that say? We have a better-case-scenario president, the shit is not stopping, and they gave him a peace prize for this. I have pretty much thrown my hands up. But I'm interested in what - if anything - it means. Surely you're interested in the nazi shit beyond a Hot Topic accessorizing interest?

[riley-o]

I made an edgy facebook status update once that went precisely like this:

Consider this: the on-paper cost of 9/11 was about $100 billion, while the cost of the restulting wars in the Middle East is rapidly approaching $1,000 billion. Those wars would only be economically justified if they prevented TEN more terrorist attacks on the scale of 9/11. Sources: http://costofwar.com/ http://www.iags.org/costof911.html

i bet you got a couple of awesome YOU CAN'T PUT A PRICE ON LIVES responses

[soiled depends]

learn another language.

[Degree Absolute]

Feinberg, the "pay czar", was previously assigned to do exactly that for 9/11 victims.

[Necrometer]

i bet you got a couple of awesome YOU CAN'T PUT A PRICE ON LIVES responses

Actually, I got zero of those, and I felt subsequently warm inside. There's one ticking timebomb of a highschool classmate though... I think he and I politely avoid cross-comments to prevent mutual assured destruction. He's a clergyman on a military base. He posted "You know you're in Basic Training land when the privates stand at parade rest in line for communion, then come to the position of attention before moving forward." and it took every bit of restraint for me to not post an "ah, a one-stop indoctrination shop! / taxbux hard at work" response.

[F/K/A HAPF]

Why don't you just let it spiral to it's inevitable conclusion?

There hasn't been a significant conclusion to American conflicts in over 100 years. They either feel like testing their new technology constantly or the government knows that having that many soldiers on American soil is welcoming a coup d'etat. Either way, nothing positive is coming from this shit but it could be worse.

[Necrometer]

that's an angle, appreciated

don't think that I haven't considered and soaked in those darksided outlooks - I am aware of the big picture

still, there is nuance to our actions... maybe this thread is about how (quickly) we're going to inevitably kill each other

[neckbeard]

http://cryptogon.com/?p=12730
Cost to Fight Each Al Qaeda Member in Afghanistan Per Year: $300 Million

[Bored, Esq.]

Embrace our extinction.

He's available for children's parties, ladies and gentleman...

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I'll back up the other folks who pointed out that long-term global trends in terms of violent conflict are basically overwhelmingly positive, but that only plays a little bit of a part in your main question, and doesn't really have much to do with US military adventurism during and since the Cold War

Is anyone willing to back this guy up and help convince me that there's any way life in the US would be WORSE with the $1 trillion spent in the middle east since 2001 re-applied to something more productive than fucking around in the desert? I have no idea how much loot we've sent to Israel but I'd pull the plug on that instantly as well. Unless you can convince me otherwise. Why not just have a department of defense that does what it's supposed to - defend?

Despite 9/11 being an obvious flash point it is difficult to use it as a cut-off for your question since a lot of the conflicts we are engaged in now have their roots and 'justifications' prior to 9/11.

For example, Iraq took place because of neoconservative/neoliberal ambitions that existed since the first Gulf War and the Bush/Cheney crew would have found a reason to do this 9/11 or not. The fact that they cynically decided to use 9/11 as a ploy to justify, and that the American people were stupid enough to buy it is largely irrelevant to the likelihood that such an invasion would have taken place anyway.

Our posture towards Israel, Iran and other countries in the region is basically consistent with what it was before 9-11 if not a bit more shrill.

Really the major difference since 9/11 is in the Afghanistan/Pakistan region, a region we had largely abandoned during the first Bush period. The idea being that Afghanistan is a fertile, lawless community for the extremist community around the middle east to gather and plan attacks, and having those elements in a lawless country next door to possibly the most unstable nuclear power in the world is a recipe for disaster.

So basically this is a really difficult question to answer in the post-911 context, but I would argue that the efforts in "Af-Pak" are justified however pessimistic I am about the outcome. Keeping nation states and nukes out of the hands of fundamentalist religious freaks (whether at home or abroad) is a pretty worthy goal and I can directly tie that to my own well-being and global peace. YES

The Iraq adventure I have mixed feelings about, there was no necessity to fight that war at that time, however there may have been some value that may be weighed against the stupidity. The overthrow of Hussein and the sabre-rattling posture of the US in that region may actually have made some of the more corrupt authorities, particularly the ones that are ostensibly our allies, in the area change their posture towards the US. At the same time, we helped Al Queda open up a new front in their jihad, and through our various misdeeds along with our general imperial arrogance helped them greatly with recruitment and propaganda, as well as discredited ourselves to our allies, and our allies on behalf of ourselves. NO

Iran - if our posture stands firm, and the people of that country continue to decide they don't want to be tools for an older generation's religious wars and end up overthrowing the regime Yes

if it turns into another Iraq NO

Israel - The Israeli right has clearly taken 9/11 as an even brighter green light to get aggressive against their enemies, they expect us to go along because they are our only solid ally in the region, but whether they become a welcome mat or a door mat really depends on what value that relationship provides to the US or it's interests. I think the Israeli experiment has been a net zero in both respects, and I applaud Obama's political bravery in actually telling Netanyahu that he has to play ball, not the other way around. The US is capable of establishing positive relationships in the Islamic world and does not need Fort Bible Camp doing more harm than good in that area. However, as I said before Israel has been our only solid ally, and due to our history of support since after WWII I think it would be shoddy to simply cut them off without giving them an opportunity to change course and get back on the right side of history. As of today, it's a NO

So two nos, one yes, and one magic eight ball. In general I will again point out, that middle eastern oil and the flow of it into our wonderful machines has a major impact on our economy and quality of life, and that is an undeniable fact 'on the ground' despite the can of argument worms that opens.

[Necrometer]

So two nos, one yes, and one magic eight ball. In general I will again point out, that middle eastern oil and the flow of it into our wonderful machines has a major impact on our economy and quality of life, and that is an undeniable fact 'on the ground' despite the can of argument worms that opens.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, John. As for the oil - I guess I am not totally bowled over because it seems like the oil price fluctuation (the bottom line) is decoupled (independent) from our military escapades. This might be too one-dimensional, but... it's not like gas prices have gone down or even remained on pace with inflation over the last ten years. And even if they WOULD HAVE gone up more, would it have been more enough to offset the trillion dollar bill?

About past and future 9/11s - that's serious genie ball shit. The couldn't predict the first one and I doubt they could predict a second one. Terrorism always has existed and always will, and I don't buy for a second that the $trillion is buying us security against another one - in fact quite the contrary. The homeland security is actually pro-active so good for them on that front. 9/11 is an extremely emotional event and it's exploited to the max on this front, I was trying to get at more of a cold & rational outlook of how things would be if 9/11 was treated like a natural disaster and we just went on with business as usual (with more airport security).

[valgalder]

About past and future 9/11s - that's serious genie ball shit. The couldn't predict the first one and I doubt they could predict a second one.

[Bored, Esq.]

It'd be nice if some of the money all of these defense contractors are grafting (while soldiers are dying because they don't have the right equipment) somehow trickled down back into our economy. One wonders where all this money is going.

[Bored, Esq.]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/us/11suit.html

2 Ex-Workers Accuse Blackwater Security Company of Defrauding the U.S. for Years

WASHINGTON — Two former employees of Blackwater Worldwide have accused the private security company of defrauding the government for years by filing bogus receipts, double billing for the same services and charging government agencies for strippers and prostitutes, according to court documents unsealed this week.

In a December 2008 lawsuit, the former employees said top Blackwater officials had engaged in a pattern of deception as they carried out government contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in Louisiana in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Etc.

[Necrometer]

LOL Alex Jones...

It'd be nice if some of the money all of these defense contractors are grafting (while soldiers are dying because they don't have the right equipment) somehow trickled down back into our economy. One wonders where all this money is going.

Well, a buddy of mine made the argument that if americans are getting a wage from the activities, then it is part of our economy in a practical sense.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

As for the oil - I guess I am not totally bowled over because it seems like the oil price fluctuation (the bottom line) is decoupled (independent) from our military escapades. This might be too one-dimensional, but... it's not like gas prices have gone down or even remained on pace with inflation over the last ten years. And even if they WOULD HAVE gone up more, would it have been more enough to offset the trillion dollar bill?

I was trying to get at more of a cold & rational outlook of how things would be if 9/11 was treated like a natural disaster and we just went on with business as usual (with more airport security).

On the first you need to consider more holistically how our relationships with these nations, (and Russia's and China's and the EU's) and their relationships with the other nations in the region are dictated by the very existence of resource extraction and exportation, it is not simply the daily fluctuations in price, it is the fact that any one or number of these nations shut us out of our precious, our entire economy is fucked beyond belief.

9/11 should have been treated like a criminal event and to the extent that it was we have done ok, and to the extent that it hasn't been, we have made mistakes. Starting a war is literally just what OBL like any insane cultist (see also McVeigh, Koresh, Manson, those Japanese subway nuts, etc...) wanted, validation of his rhetoric and recruits for his glorious cause. Such a provocative act is always intended to provoke the most vicious response and OBL totally Elmer Fudd'd us. Now instead of the US elite forces going after the small criminal cult, the US militarily is going after the entire middle eastern infrastructure of belief and politics, pissing off and thus engaging everyone along the way.

Again, imagine if after Oklahoma City, Clinton bombed Idaho - you think the culture wars are bad now....

It'd be nice if some of the money all of these defense contractors are grafting (while soldiers are dying because they don't have the right equipment) somehow trickled down back into our economy. One wonders where all this money is going.

The problem is it does trickle down to all 50 states and into the wallets of the congress, all these contractors, spread the wealth to all 50 states, making sure they have employees in every congressional district, or just enough of them to make doves hawks when it comes to military spending. For more willing participants, see Sen. Richard Shelby in Alabama, putting holds on all of Obama's nominees until he gets his military pork.

[Bored, Esq.]

The problem is it does trickle down to all 50 states and into the wallets of the congress, all these contractors, spread the wealth to all 50 states, making sure they have employees in every congressional district, or just enough of them to make doves hawks when it comes to military spending. For more willing participants, see Sen. Richard Shelby in Alabama, putting holds on all of Obama's nominees until he gets his military pork.

Yeah. I guess what I meant to say is that it would be nice if everyone could see exactly where it was going...