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haha, I was assuming the laser light show was a joke?

valgalder wrote:haha, I was assuming the laser light show was a joke?

I have a rich history of not getting jokes on this board.

I heard at one show they unleashed giant Scion car who transformed into a giant corporate cyberwoman with a head shaped like a Scion logo and shot Scion logo bullets out of her tits at the crowd if no one bought a Scion.

altars of radness wrote:

From Blintzes to Crepes wrote:Sci-on gave me a shirt and socks. I don't see another show doing that.

I take it you've never seen the Wiggles.

Fucking poser.

I'm doing everything in my power to keep my daughter from discovering those smarmy Aussie fuckers.

When I went to the first Scion thing in Atlanta a few years ago, I don't recall seeing anything especially noticeable as far as Scion shit is concerned but we did see a dude driving one on the interstate while leaving the show. We of course called him a faggot.

I'm mad

I apologize in advance for this

MINI MANIFESTO

First off, thanks to anyone who attempted to provide answers to my questions, such as Ross and Kevin. Ross is an extremely intelligent and articulate guy whose opinion is always appreciated, and I have nothing but respect for Kevin—he has strong ideals and he puts his money where his mouth is. My post wasn't of an apologist nature (-1 reading comprehension for Ross), but rather a sincere question. I'm disappointed that no one has really explained why these events are inherently bad other than by repeating the sentiment that they are in fact bad and if I don't understand it than I'm an idiot. Yes, big corporations are often less-than-shining examples of high ethics and accountability, but I suspect that many of the disdain for these types of events comes from an arbitrary corporations = bad mentality than a reasonable attempt at critical thinking.

As some of you may know, I've spent a fair amount of time studying the skill of advantage gambling (i.e., playing games of chance involving a skill element with a long-term positive expectation). As I've interacted with many other people that share this interest, I've found that one of the most difficult tendencies for them to overcome is the inability to effectively parse information and dispose of extraneous and irrelevant details while focusing on truly pertinent ones. A self-professed "good poker player" saw me playing a game where I was doing very well. I played the same game the next day and did very poor. When he asked me about it, I told him that the game was better on the second day (i.e., I had a higher positive expectation than on the first day) but that I had done poorly, results-wise. He couldn't grasp that the game quality was the only important detail—not the results.

The reason I bring this up is because there's a really good book written by poker theorist and player David Sklansky called "Fighting Fuzzy Thinking In Poker, Gaming & Life." In the book, he approaches non-gambling situations from the perspective of a skilled poker player, applying long-term expectation analysis principles to everyday life. This is very similar to how I try to do things these days. In my older, punk rock days (god, I hope I'm not as jaded and worn out as I sound here), I would have simply written this off as a corporations = bad scenario, but now I make an attempt to question whether or not my snap judgment is the result of actual critical reasoning or simple conditioning. I'm not saying that an initial negative assessment is incorrect, I'm just saying that I try to avoid using poor reasoning and faulty logic just because it's the easy, acceptable (in this context) way to do things. No one is going to call you out for having an anti-corporate stance, but that doesn't mean that it's a well-thought out one.

In keeping with this line of thinking, I also don't buy into the if you don't want to support corporations you have to live in a shack in the woods that you built yourself fallacy. This is the same weak, flimsy argument that people use to argue against radical politics (nothing's going to change, so why waste your time?) and animal rights activism (you can't avoid consuming animal products in every single facet of life, so why waste your time?). The fact is that I fully respect those who choose to not accept corporate sponsorship in this context, and I agree that DIY music and corporate sponsorship are inherently at odds. But therein lies my final point: if a band chooses to accept such a sponsorship, that doesn't automatically negate the value of their musical output, or somehow make them less ethically responsible than a DIY garage crust band in the Midwest, at least in terms of their concert appearances. Sure, if a band makes their name rallying against corporate sponsorship of music and then subsequently signs to a major label, then labeling them as sellouts probably has merit. But fucking MERZBOW? With most of the bands on that bill, I think cries of sellout are less the product of an apparent reversal of principals and more simple parroting of what you're supposed to think and say in this situation.

Hopefully this clears up the apologist accusation a bit, but if not, let me include a less-verbose summary: I totally agree with and respect those who are opposed to this kind of event if their opposition is based on sound reasoning and not blinded by the very common human tendency to look at things in much more of a black-and-white manner than they deserve to be.

[/tilting at windmills]

Full disclosure (that no one will be surprised by): I've been to quite a few Scion A/V events here in Florida, mostly for DJs and electronic producers. At every single one of them, the Scion presence was limited to sampler CDs of unreleased material, compilations, mixes, etc., and a pair of Scion socks (ha ha) at most. I'll admit that the Scion branding RIGHT ON THE FRONT of the Immolation cover art is a bit disgusting. In most of these instances, these were tours that wouldn't have happened in FL if Scion didn't bring them here. That doesn't mean that I give a shit about Scion or somehow feel ingratiated by them bringing acts that I want to see to my desolate, show-starved region; I've never bought a new car in my life and I don't see a situation where I'll ever be doing so (although I am pretty sure that I'll be buying a 1970 Opel GT next week because it's fucking awesome). It also doesn't mean that I feel bad for not having passed on seeing these shows just because they had a corporate sponsor. I'll probably swing by the one in Tampa toward the end, but I'll leave my Scion socks at home.

F. Murray Sandyclam wrote:It's the notion of "lifestyle" that ruins everything.

Maybe part of the whole thing is that my lifestyle these days is so drastically different from anything that external corporate (or musical, for that matter) forces can hoist upon me that I'm ambivalent about the fact that there are companies out there making constant attempts to do so. I've become the manager of the punk record store who I made fun of at age 14 for wearing a Dinosaur Jr. t-shirt. I haven't lost my principles, I've just spent more time discerning between principles and bullshit.

I wonder how many Christians who are leaning towards getting a Scion discover they put out an Immolation record and decide to buy a Nissan Cube instead.

Justin: I read the bulk of your minifesto. There's not much in there I'm feeling compelled to argue against or attempt to negate. To address your "where are the counter-arguments" plea, I guess it comes down to utility v. aesthetics. If we're just looking at this shit as numbers, then of course everyone wins. The bands get paid while gaining exposure; the "fans" get a product or experience without having to pay money. This is a win-win, but only if you look at it from the perspective of some scumbag in marketing (I'm looking at you SeventhSon: burn in hell). Ultimately this is art we're talking about, and in some cases there are (were?) sociopolitical or revolutionary undertones. If people can't identify the fundamental problem with the co-opting of this type of art, nothing I type is going to make that apparent. Commodification destroys the spirit of these things. I guess LA is mecca when it comes to turning "art" into money, so I guess there's a different perspective down there.

One quick comment on the practical side of things: the for-pay shows that get a little car-logo on the poster fall into a slightly different category than the full-blown free concerts and car-record-label releases. Everyone's glowing reviews of the former aren't pertinent IMO.

F. Murray Sandyclam wrote:I'm a little saddened by the fact that any idealism whatsoever is now considered "immature."

I hope I don't come across this way, as I don't feel that way at all, not even a little. I agree with just about everything you've said in your post, and I in fact consider myself to be somewhat of an idealist myself. Nothing makes me more sick than Noah-13 types who look back on their past and only see immaturity. I see my current philosophy as a logical progression of what I've always believed; the things that I held dear in the past are still the things that I hold dear now. I still get worked up listening to CRASS albums, and I still try to make a difference in the world around me by doing what I think is the right thing and leading by example. But I'm not quick to take a stand on something that I haven't really thought out. I'm not passionate for the sake of being passionate; no one needs another fucking phony.

FWIW, if this bill was filled with anti-establishment types and vocal critics of the corporate world's endless co-opting of counterculture (nothing new there, by the way), then I would probably feel different about it than I do facing a bill of expressly non-political metal bands. I still think Cellgraft are killer.

This would all be a hell of a lot easier if you people would just read Adorno.

Necrometer wrote:Ultimately this is art we're talking about, and in some cases there are (were?) sociopolitical or revolutionary undertones. If people can't identify the fundamental problem with the co-opting of this type of art, nothing I type is going to make that apparent. Commodification destroys the spirit of these things. I guess LA is mecca when it comes to turning "art" into money, so I guess there's a different perspective down there.

This is the kind of stuff I was looking for, thanks. I don't disagree with it either, FWIW (admittedly very little).

Necrometer wrote:If we're just looking at this shit as numbers, then of course everyone wins. The bands get paid while gaining exposure; the "fans" get a product or experience without having to pay money. This is a win-win, but only if you look at it from the perspective of some scumbag in marketing (I'm looking at you SeventhSon: burn in hell).

I also don't want to suggest that this kind of thing is inherently "good," for the same reasons that I think it's not necessarily inherently "bad." I'm not so naive to see this as some sort of altruistic attempt on Scion's behalf to benefit underground music, I just don't see it as anything that is as automatically negative as some would suggest. My problem is not with the criticism itself, it's with the lack of any real thought that props up so much weak criticism in general, especially in the context of the underground/extreme music scene.

What a stupid argument..."art" is commodified when you're placing this unwarranted sacred value on it...why? Because they're writing about ideals that absolutely no one adheres to? How exactly is this music any more valid than something like limp bizkit where the hypocrisy is taken for granted? Because no one wants to listen to a bunch of noisy bullshit and a fat fuck belching into a microphone? You want to stick to your ideals? Play for free. I just hope that at the end people will realize that DIY is inherently retarded and hypocritical. Go to the concert or don't...

How exactly is it hypocritical to do things yourself?

Hi Amelia!

MeatGrease wrote:What a stupid argument..."art" is commodified when you're placing this unwarranted sacred value on it...why? Because they're writing about ideals that absolutely no one adheres to? How exactly is this music any more valid than something like limp bizkit where the hypocrisy is taken for granted? Because no one wants to listen to a bunch of noisy bullshit and a fat fuck belching into a microphone? You want to stick to your ideals? Play for free. I just hope that at the end people will realize that DIY is inherently retarded and hypocritical. Go to the concert or don't...

I love how this fucking twerp who is always on the take thinks that he grew a fucking brain...wrong...

Necrometer wrote:If people can't identify the fundamental problem with the co-opting of this type of art, nothing I type is going to make that apparent. Commodification destroys the spirit of these things.

THIS.

Leave kill your mother music alone you fucking MBAs.

soiled depends wrote:I love how this fucking twerp who is always on the take thinks that he grew a fucking brain...wrong...

She...

Necrometer wrote:How exactly is it hypocritical to do things yourself?

As if non-"DIY" bands never did anything themselves. People put out music themselves out of necessity... because they think their "art" just needs to be heard when in fact it just plain sucks. "I'm going to create a product that will be sold which is all about anti-materialism...but i fingerpainted the cover myself so that makes it valid"

Scion should get into the Prius making business so they can just run over all these dumb assholes.

MeatGrease wrote:Scion should get into the Prius making business so they can just run over all these dumb assholes.

Panzers are for making jokes at the expense of Amelias and the like, NOT for her to appropriate.

I can't believe Amelia has been treating me so badly all this time...

soiled depends wrote:I can't believe Amelia has been treating me so badly all this time...

You still have a job Clark, you ungrateful ass!